Distance Learning in Theology

kiss of death

Theo,

I just looked back over my post and realized I should include something. If you plan to teach, then accreditation is considerably more important. Although people have done quite well for themselves with unaccredited degrees from Bob Jones University or Central Baptist Theological Seminary, RA/ATS accreditation is probably in order if you wish to teach somewhere.

If you plan to serve God as a minister, then look beyond "Is it RA?" Get the best schooling you can, and bear in mind that in the real world, not even all RA schools are created equal.

Yale (RA) > California State University (RA)

 

And on top of that...

I think accreditation is a good thing, but the absence of it is not always the kiss of death.

On top of that, I'd like to mention that one not only needs to consider these things mentioned above, but if one wants to do doctoral work after seminary, an unaccredited degree is, in fact, a kiss of death.

 

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I somewhat agree, but these questions remain:

1) I believe the profs grade papers at Trinity rather than design , and only modestly implement, the modules .So is the degree held by the prof of significance equal to a context where the prof also actually creates and actively supervises the learning experience by much interaction? I will testify that in the three classes I finished at trinity the cumulative responses, the probes to lead to further learning, by profs to submissions, I could easily hold in one hand! Conversly, my current evaluator so covers my submissions with his comments that my own words are barely visible! Teaching is MORE than putting down a letter grade!!! Teaching is energetically leading the student and enthusiatically showing him how to learn more and more . If the modules or the student's own ambition are the only agents of this, who cares where the profs get their degrees? Russell I was as nearly grieved at this as I was about the claim of accreditation.

2) The future generally is not known and therefore why should the later possible need for accreditation be ignored when schooling is contemplated?

3) With the abundance of accredited DL degrees in Theology available, some at very modest pricing, why opt for the other?

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Although I wouldn't describe ATS as pro-distance learning, it has become more accommodating of distance programs. The "one-third" rule for M.Div. programs has been updated. The current M.Div. location standards (A.3.2.1) state:

"In order to ensure an appropriate educational community, at least one year of full-time academic study or its equivalent shall be completed at the main campus of the school awarding the degree or at an extension site of the institution that has been approved for M.Div. degree-granting status."

From http://www.ats.edu/accredit/aca.htm

Practically speaking, this means that up to two-thirds of an M.Div. (approximately 60 credits) can be earned at-a-distance with the remaining third taken on-campus (or an approved extension site) through residential or modular courses. The corollary for M.A. programs states that one-half of the coursework (approximately 30 credits) can be taken at-a-distance, with the remaining half earned on-campus or at an approved extension site. Once again, these campus credits can be earned residentially or through modular courses. Of course, there are also approved pilot programs (e.g., the M.A. offered through Reformed Theological Seminary's Virtual Campus with 90% of the coursework completed via distance learning) that require even less residency, but these are not the norm.

I think that ATS needs to review programs before permitting them to decrease their residency requirements, but it is possible. Asbury Theological Seminary, Columbia Biblical Seminary & School of Missions, and Regent University School of Divinity are some of the institutions offering such programs.

Jason D. Baker
http://www.bakersguide.com

 

Thank you, Jason. I wasn't aware of this either. When was the ATS requirement updated?

 

Although reduced residency opportunities have only recently appeared in selected ATS-accredited programs, I believe that the underlying structural change occurred when Section 10 of the ATS accreditation standards (originally titled "Extension Education" now labeled "Multiple Locations and Distance Education") was updated. The revision was approved at their 42nd Biennial Meeting in 2000. The original standard limited the amount of external independent study to one-third of the total degree while the revised standard didn't impose such a blanket restriction and relegated residency requirements to the individual degree standards. The revised Section 10 was also more detailed about planning and evaluation, teaching and curriculum, and other aspects of designing and delivering distance education.

Jason D. Baker
http://www.bakersguide.com

 

doctoral work

"…if one wants to do doctoral work after seminary, an unaccredited degree is, in fact, a kiss of death."

Christopher,

With all due respect, I think this is a bit overstated. Lets look at some professors who have gotten their M.Div. at unaccredited seminaries, then went on to doctoral programs. In fact, we’ll limit this only to accredited doctoral programs.

James Borland (past President of the Evangelical Theological Society, Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary)
MDiv, Los Angeles Baptist Theological Seminary
ThM, Talbot Theological Seminary
ThD, Grace Theological Seminary

Robert Milliman (Central Baptist Theological Seminary)
MDiv, ThM, Central Baptist Theological Seminary
PhD, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School

Roy Beacham (Central Baptist Theological Seminary)
MDiv, ThM, Central Baptist Theological Seminary
ThD, Grace Theological Seminary

Thomas Zempel (Central Baptist Theological Seminary)
MDiv, Central Baptist Theological Seminary
DMin, Westminster Theological Seminary

Dell Johnson (Pensacola Theological Seminary)
MRE, MDiv, ThM, ThD, Central Baptist Theological Seminary
DMin, Grace Theological Seminary

Greg Mutsch (Pensacola Theological Seminary)
MDiv, Central Baptist Theological Seminary
DMin, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School

David Doran (President, Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary)
MDiv, ThM, Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary
DMin, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School

I do not think that that holding an unaccredited M.Div. invalidates their doctoral work, or tarnishes the institution where they got their doctoral degree. These doctoral programs (Grace, Trinity, and Westminster) are very competitive and have very high standards for entrance.

Accreditation is fine, but theology is an area where some quality schools legitimately choose not to be accredited. In some denominations, a degree on your resume from Bob Jones University, Pensacola Theological Seminary, Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary, or Central Baptist Theological Seminary will actually have superior utility.

 

Re: doctoral work

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Ummm ...isn't Central Baptist both ATS and RA??

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Okay DG1

Okay, DG1, good point. I guess I would have to retract my statement to be taken more as a general truth. Even as that, though, its just better to have one that is RA rather than not. It may not be a "kiss of death."

 

Central Baptist

Bill,

Good eye!

There are TWO Central Baptist Theological Seminaries. One is an independent fundamental Baptist school in Plymouth, Minnesota. The other is part of the American Baptist Churches in the USA and is located in Kansas City, Missouri. The cases I cited are from the unaccredited fundamental school.

Dave

 

Re: Central Baptist

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unaccredited schools

Bill,

Perhaps my post was too cluttered to follow easily. Let me clarify.

The ABC-USA Central Baptist Theological Seminary in Kansas City, MO is accredited, but has no relation to my list.

The independent, fundamentalist Central Baptist Theological Seminary in Plymouth, MN is unaccredited.

The schools the professors went to for their M.Div.’s are listed under their names. These school either are unaccredited (Central, Detroit) or were unaccredited (LA Baptist Theological Seminary, now the regionally accredited Master’s College & Seminary).

Both the schools and the professors are credible in my opinion. Accreditation is a good thing, but it is not the only good thing.

Dr. Borland is the only person on the list that I have had any contact with, and he is a real gentleman, as well as the author of “Christ in the Old Testament”, which I commend to your attention.

Dave

 

Re: unaccredited schools

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No, your post was not too cluttered to be easiliy followed, it was too significant to be easily believed. Those examples of going from unaccredited MDiv etc into Grace or Westminster doc programs establish your point. Forgive my astonishment and thanks for causing it. Point well taken!

I did email Borland a few times when I became an ETS member and he seems a fine indivual.

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I agree that a non-accredited master's degree is not an automatic kiss of death for one seeking to do doctoral work at an accredited institution, but I think some qualification needs to be made regarding schools like Central Baptist Theological Seminary (CBTS).

I'm quite familiar with CBTS. I have lectured at the school, and I know several individuals associated with it. One of those individuals earned two master's degrees from CBTS, taught graduate level courses at the school, and was subsequently accepted into the PhD program at Dallas Theological Seminary (DTS). Though unaccredited, CBTS enjoys a long-standing approval in Christian educational circles because of the school's rigorous academic requirements. CBTS is one of the few schools that requires training in Hebrew and Greek throughout its MDiv and ThM programs, and this in part explains the success students have had entering doctoral programs at schools like DTS and Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. In short, CBTS has proven its academic proficiency and is treated like a school with recognized accreditation.

On a more extreme front, I personally know an individual who possessed no bachelor's degree, and earned a Master of Biblical Languages from a small, state-approved school called Tulsa Seminary of Biblical Languages (TSBL). The individual was very proficient in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, Arabic, Syriac, Coptic, and certain forms of Egyptian hieroglyph. After convincing the University of Chicago to allow him to sit for entrance exams, he was admitted to the PhD program and is currently writing a dissertation on ancient Nubian texts.

Though examples given in this thread demonstrate that an unaccredited master's degree is not a kiss of death, I think it's safe to say that such cases are indeed rare. In the case of CBTS, the school has maintained its reputation of academic rigor over several decades and thus is treated by many schools as if it is accredited. Unaccredited fledgling schools are not likely to enjoy such privilege, no matter the faculty they employ. They'll either need to obtain accreditation, or spend the next few decades establishing reputations like that of CBTS. In the case of TSBL, the school was neither accredited nor enjoyed a widespread reputation in academic circles. The facility of the TSBL degree was, in my opinion, wholly dependent upon the extraordinary ability of the student possessing it.

In short, if one is going to pursue an unaccredited master's degree and later enroll in an accredited doctoral program, he or she needs to pick a long-standing school that already enjoys a good reputation amongst accredited institutions, or possess such a high degree of competency that accredited institutions are scrambling to open the door regardless of parchments presented. Since few people meet the latter criterion, it's best to choose an unaccredited school already possessing an outstanding reputation or go the route of recognized accreditation.

 

Two other unaccredited schools whose graduates seem to enjoy similar acceptance (perhaps not to the same extent) within the accredited , evangelical academic community are Lutheran Brethren Seminary in Fergus Falls, MN, and Association Free Lutheran Theological Seminary in Plymouth, MN.

Apparently, Jesse Ventura, wanting the graduates of all Minnesota institutions to be given a chance at acceptance in the academic community, yet recognizing, in his own words, that "religion is for weaklings," has been taking matters into his own hands by sending his minions (former WWF wrestling buddies) around to rough up the registrars of accredited seminaries. This approach seems to be working wonders for the unaccredited seminaries of Minnesota!

Cory Seibel

 

Not to mention Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary (Wisconsin Synod), which has never sought accreditation for some of the same reasons (mutatis mutandis) as BJU.

 

Getting back to Theo

Theo, have you gotten any feedback from the schools you applied to? (the reputable ones) Are you now looking at any others?

 

Perhaps when Jesse leaves office, he and his comrades can get hired out as academic hit men.

Applicant with a Trinity College/University masters:

"What, you won't accept me into the Harvard Ph.D. program? I'm going to send Jesse Ventura to pay you a visit."

Harvard Registrar:

"Err, umm, well Mr. Smith, I think we can make an exception."

 

So, this is what Jesse was referring to recently when he stated that he had some jobs in the works.