Discrimination against online degrees

Re: Re: Discrimination against online degrees

I agree with Brad in the sense that you should not let the prospect of discrimination deter you from pursuing your educational goals. In that regard you should just, "blow it off," and keep to your program. Most of us pursue DL programs because the circumstances of our lives do not allow for the mainstream alternatives. The idea of letting go of our goals because someone might sneer is absurd.
At the same time, we will also be in positions of seeking jobs or promotions where open-minded people will inquire about our DL degrees. Asking honest questions is not, by itself, discrimination. We would all do well to be prepared to answer these questions with solid, factual information regarding our specific programs and DL in general.
If you live in NYC (for example) and have earned a degree from the University of London while working in NYC, then it would be foolish if you did not expect to answer questions about, "How did you earn a degree in London while living/working in NYC?" Such a question is not discriminatory and it requires a solid answer. In fact, answers to this question might constitute a very helpful thread.
Jack

 

Hmm... So the bottom line is really the bottom line? Those of you who have gone back for more school, have you done so primarily to make more money?

 

Re: Re: Re: Discrimination against online degrees

Yes. That is an outstanding point. And your ability to explain what you've done and why you've done so will confirm the value of your degree.

 

Re: good thread

I think online education can be an excellent alternative to further education and earn while you study. A professional is much valuable if he earns experience while he studies instead of just sitting in a class room.

However, we have to acknowledge the limitations of online education when it comes to prepare academics. Online PhDs are not meant to prepare academics but professionals, they lack a lot of the components that are needed for an academic life as publications and on-ground teaching experience. Other limitations are lack of verbal communications development that are normally developed in on-ground programs. Online MBAs lack of many of the components you get on the B&M programs as networking and communications skills. You are not getting an easy ride but you must be aware of the limitations.

 

As someone who sits on both sides of this debate on a daily basis, I'll add my two cents. I'm an HR exec and get asked this question a lot. Acceptance of anything new is a slow process, as we all know. However, at least where I work (one of the country's largest school districts) I am seeing that perception starting to change. This past summer I saw a lot more resumes come through with what I know are DL degrees from RA schools (mostly graduate degrees). Keep in mind, too, that most HR people don't know which schools are DL schools (other than the big name for profit ones). In fact, until I found this forum, I would not have known that a lot of the schools were DL programs and, especially with names like Charter Oaks State College -- nobody will bat an eye.

Our rule of thumb is that as long as coursework comes from an RA school and shows up on a transcript with a grade attached (not pass/fail) -- it 'counts'. I see lots of Ed.D's on resumes from NOVA and interviewers and hiring administrators see them as doctorates -- period. 5 years ago, though, it was a different story.

On a personal note, I experienced a little bit of discrimination from a colleague just this morning. She knows that I'm working on my MBA through Amberton and asked me what I was doing this weekend. I replied, "housework and studying". She made some comment about how 'yes...but it's just one of 'those online degrees', right?' I replied that it is, indeed, an online degree and that I'm working my a** off between work, family and school. She gave me a 'look' and I said..."Do you remember how, when you were in school, open book tests were always MUCH harder than regular ones? I'm writing like crazy every weekend and, trust me, I'm earning my grades." It shut her up...for a while, at least.

I will always be honest about how I earned my MBA. I'm proud of the fact that I'm getting another degree at this stage in my life and I know that if I had to attend class each week I'd not be able to do it. That said, from an HR perspective, I can certainly make suggestions to those who want to experience the least amount of discrimination in hiring is the following:

1. If you're really concerned about what people will think -- get a degree from a program that has a B&M program, too. If a local college or university offers an online degree program, consider that and nobody will be any the wiser if they see it on your resume. If asked, be honest...but if it's a local degree, nobody will probably even question it.

2. Don't put the graduation date of any of your degrees on your resume. I earned my first two degrees from B&M schools, but I still don't put dates on my resumes. Why? I don't want to experience age discrimination. There is no way to tell whether I did those degrees when I was 22 and a full time student or 45 and holding down a full time job. Quite frankly, most people don't care WHEN you got a degree -- they just care THAT you got a degree.

3. If you're really concerned about what people will think, share this information on a need to know basis (Kinda like the gays in the military..."don't ask...don't tell" thing.) Don't ever be deceitful, but don't 'over-explain' or disclose more than you need to if you feel that discrimination might be a problem.

4. Finally, whether on your resume or application, don't write "Mississippi State University - online degree" where it asks for the college or university. Just write "Mississippi State" -- period. I cringe when I see that on resumes -- not because I discount it, because I don't -- but only because I know this kid is setting himself or herself up for the potential for discrimination.

 

It's true that I have a Ph.D. It's true that I specialized in nontraditional higher education at one of the leaders in nontraditional higher education. It's also true that I have an MBA from one of the more prominent nontraditional schools in California. And it's true that I have two bachelor's degrees from the USNY Regents program.

It's also true that I've been working in and around this field for the past 25 years. It's true that I've been working for the last year at a prominent nontraditional university. It's true that an article I wrote will soon be published in a journal. And it's true that I'm one of the more prolific posters on this board.

But I didn't call myself an expert. So who are you talking about?

Rich Douglas, Ph.D.

 

Marylars, I totally argree with you about this dl 100%.

Most of the time people are setting themselves up for discrimation or bias because of the information they put on their resume and they do not even realize it.

I have learned this while sending out my resume; eliminate stuff that does not need to be there and let them figure out it out in HR or let them believe what they want to believe or either ask me question if they have any. I found you have to be weary now of how you place stuff on your resume, I have ran into HR people and other hiring folks who has discriminated againist not only age, but where you live (location), school, and the list probably goes on further.

I had one guy that was running into age discrimination because he was putting information on his resume such as real old jobs and dates that would reveal his age. When I had him to eliminate some information on his resume and revised it; he started getting more interview phone calls. Hmmm... I wonder why???

I am currently attending Excelsior college when be finishing up my BS in Business next year. When I obtain it. It will be only listed on my resume as Excelsior College, BS in Business only . It will not list the state, city or date graduated anywhere on my resume period. If they have questions usually HR or the person hiring will ask.

 

I guess only true experts can post their ideas, suggestions, experiences, advice, or words of encouragement.

Remember those commercials from the 80's that had some actor pushing over-the-counter medications? The actor would say up front, "I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV."

This forum needs to be more like those commercials. "I'm not an expert, but I play one on this forum."

I think from now on everyone should state their expert status.

PhD2B, Non-expert

 

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The person who will question you is the job interviewer who has noticed, after scanning your resume, that you earned your University of London degree while concurrently holding a full-time job in New York (or some other town).
************
This is a self-serving, overly exaggerated example depicting one narrow category of people, while there are many.


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I have learned this while sending out my resume; eliminate stuff that does not need to be there and let them figure out it out in HR or let them believe what they want to believe or either ask me question if they have any. I found you have to be weary now of how you place stuff on your resume, I have ran into HR people and other hiring folks who has discriminated againist not only age, but where you live (location), school, and the list probably goes on further.
*********

exactly.
Someone who stuffed her CV with conflicting or revealing information, must be prepared to handle the upcoming questions

However i have met full time working (on paper) people who attended "traditional" university part-time ( you can't reside 500+km away to pull this one, though ).

It is not "nobody will know": it is "nobody would bother inquiring ".
You hide nothing: you just try to avoid further scrutiny.
This presuming the university you are from is of their liking.
You can be from any place & find people who think they have ground & reasons to write you off just because you're X graduate.
Most times, just the bestowing institution & the degree have already set the decision in the interviewer's mind, even before he entertains you.
This voids the entire argument i guess because you'll really never know.
I think "University of London" offers much less ground to frivulous questions than Open University; same as McGill university would compared to Athabasca.
Unless the interviewer is an alumnus himself, little does he know ( except hearsay, public acceptance & whatever his instructions command ) about the university.

 

Hmm, under this logic, a successful drug pusher might well be smarter than both of them.

 

Please explain to me (and everyone else) how my comment was "self-serving" and "overly exaggerated." It is my contention that many, many people earn DL degrees from schools that are so distant from their home/work that they are automatically identified as being DL degrees. Are there some that are enrolled in DL programs offered by schools near their homes? Of course, but I do not believe that this is the norm. Your stating that I posted a comment that was "self-serving" suggests that you might actually know something about me and my life. Otherwise, how could you possibly know what might be "self-serving" for me? So, if you know something about me, tell us all how my comment was "self-serving."
Jack

 

Mr. Wilkinson..I must ask you...do you really believe your own statement?

Money only makes people happy to a certain point. I cannot tell you how many 'career changers' I have hired as high school teachers and, in my previous HR life, as youth counselors (rubbish wage is an understatement with the latter). These are people who have made their fortunes and who had been extremely successful in the corporate world, but who realized that something was missing.

Except in the early stages of their careers when money is, indeed, a more critical factor, people do not generally change jobs just for the money. Contrary to popular belief, the things that employees value the most are challenging work, appreciation, making a difference, etc. In no survey of 'what employees really want' will you see money even close to the top of the list.

I plan to earn my PhD after I finish my MBA. Will it earn me any more money? Maybe a bit, but not a substantial amount. I'll be doing it because I love to learn and because someday, after my kids are all grown, I would love to teach. I'll not get rich doing it -- at least the way you think of 'rich' -- but the rewards will be far greater than anything money can buy.

Perhaps that makes me stupid in your eyes. If so, I suspect you have either a very sad life or a lot of growing up to do.

 

Great point, my primary care physician gave up his practice to teach third grade. He said teaching children would be more rewarding since the money no longer mattered to him.

 

So, if someone can committ fraud to make more money, the means justify the ends?

I could make a great deal of money by "purchasing" degrees, and scamming people. I could also make a great deal of money robbing banks. Money is not the only variable in the game.

 

It is my contention that many, many people earn DL degrees from schools that are so distant from their home/work that they are automatically identified as being DL degrees[B/]

exactly.
you made an example that proved your point with astounding clarity.
And that is self-serving ( serving the purpose of proving your point ).
As well, that example does NOT reflect the situation of the greatest majority of people ( this is my opinion ).
For example, Open University maintains examination centres all across Europe; Teluq & Athabasca do across Canada, etc.
People go there to sit exams, hence it barely fits into the "typical" DL scheme, because ( at least here ) what many students enrolled at state universities do is just that: prepare for exams on their own, then go to the university to be tested.

As well, as someone said that there are many ways, motives & reasons for prejudice; it doesn't really matter whether DL or not.


"self-serving" suggests that you might actually know something about me and my life. Otherwise, how could you possibly know what might be "self-serving" for me? So, if you know something about me, tell us all how my comment was "self-serving."[B/]

There is no personality issue unless you make one.
You made a point and i stated my opinion as others do.
We're on the WWW and i couldn't care less who you are; where you're from and anything & everything about you.
Hence what my words MIGHT suggest to you, i have no idea: here is the explanation.

 

Re: Re: good thread

To RFValve:
True, but professional networking and socializing may be done through other means such as joining an institution. I did an online MBA (fully online) but I participate in the local sections of the IEEE, and the British Engineers joint group in the United Arab Emirates. So networking and communication skills are not real issues.



Regarding online degrees:
I heard many people say "how can you learn without the professor deliver lectures right in front of you where you can ask questions for clarifications when in doubt". In a “much unrelated analogy”, I might also say “how can the money be deposited to my account in another bank without going to a nearest branch and talk to the teller with my bank book, fill-up and sign a withdrawal slip, take the money, move to the other bank, talk to the teller, fill-up a deposit slip, and there it goes – deposited”. I wonder if those who frown on online degrees have tried and experienced online banking (as simple as it is).

There was a story of a little girl who was brought up in a village by a loving family. All her younger years she knows that she is so beautiful, according to her parents and immediate family member. Things changed and a big city has been built nearby, where people of different races, and from all walks of life came to inhabit it. The, now, grown-up girl, walks within the new city, still believing that she is the only beautiful girl in the village (now city) looks at new faces (of other race or color) as real ugly and horrible beings.

In other words, and in my opinion, the real problem is the human nature itself, which cannot adapt to change. And I think in most instances it’s due to a term I call “superiority complex”. I don’t know what it is called by Psychologists who are, I guess, the experts in that area of knowledge. Somewhere like “mine is better than yours attitude”.

I also face the same situation with some people regarding online/distance education. But who cares, I don’t do it for them; it’s for me and for my own good.

In one instance, I happen to chat with a colleague regarding DL. Perhaps unintentional, he had uttered negative about DL and in a very diplomatic way I injected into his mind that he has a “backward mentality” and that, with that kind of mentality societies cannot move forward or else if he cannot adapt to change (if still hangs-on to B&M system despite the available alternative) he’ll find himself in the museum studying displays of the “evolution”. That time he’ll not trace where the “man” is going but rather where it came from, so he would learn how to be a “monkey”. Well, I did it all tactfully, with a smile of course.

cheers,

 

OK, now I understand. Of course, by using this definition of "self-serving" you are also saying that all of your remarks are also self-serving as you use them to prove your point. It would also seem then that everyones postings are self-serving as they too are used to prove their points. So, everything everyone says is always self-serving (according to your definition). It kinda makes you wonder why you bothered to point that out. In any case, I think that your example of the Open University serves to prove my point. People prepare on their own and then sit exams in some local exam center. So when you see a resume that states a person has earned an Open University degree then you know automatically that it's a DL degree. Nobody commutes from France to London in order to attend classes. So if you're living in France (or anywhere else in Europe) and you're earning an Open U degree, it's clear that it's a DL degree.
Jack

 

by using this definition of "self-serving" you are also saying that all of your remarks

It kinda makes you wonder why you bothered to point that out.

exactly.
However your example was self-contradictory because it stated one would include in his resume BOTH the item he had been working 20 years full time in NY & the tentative to trade his DL degree under the brick & mortar trademark of the bestowing UK university.

I mean: that is asking for overzealous scutiny, isn't it?
Like saying i am a karate III black belt; yet i am sitting long term in hospital because some single, barehanded 16yo punk assaulted me & put me in a wheelchair.

Both may happen to be true but they could hardly co-exist...unless my karate III black belt is of fictionary origin.

i had to add the above lines because of your allegations i had made my post directed towards you ( whom i couldn't care less ) and your private life: here's why.

People prepare on their own and then sit exams in some local exam center. So when you see a resume that states a person has earned an Open University degree then you know automatically that it's a DL degree.

Not at all.
( as i previously added ) that is what most students enrolled at state universities do HERE: preparing on their own, to subsequently sit exams at the university.
I say most and not all because some degrees ( ex medicine, engineering ) require compulsory laboratory & clinic & etc modules.
I heard as well some degrees not so in demand are a pleasure to pursue as classes are barely up to 15-20 individuals ( as opposed to the 100's i was used to ).
But once again, i see not much difference between one attending in-person only mandatory components at a state university here and say OU face-to-face tutorship events.
This may sound like hair splitting & it is to me, but it adds another perspective.

This difference may not concern north americans, yet it is real nonetheless.

As far as i am concerned ( and as far as it many many times happens ), here ( but elsewhere as well ) they would probably turn an OU degree down under frivulous pretext, even before engaging in a debate over DL/DT.