DETC Doctorate Pilot

MSW programs usually aren't research oriented. I have a lot of respect for the degree but MSWs are often as confused about "proving up" programs as us lawyers are.

There are a LOT of general J.D./Ph.D. programs out there. Such a person would be well equipped to do the sorts of things I have in mind but it TAKES SO LONG to finish such a program!

It is my understanding that a J.S.D. is expected to be COMPLETED within 2-3 years of J.D. completion, for a total of 5-6 years from the B.A. Ph.D.s, on the other hand, can drag on through the crack of DOOM!

 

The university of Nebraska has a J.D./Ph.D. in Psychology.

I am not sure an Ed.D. at the DETC level would make much sense. It has essentially become the same degree as a Ph.D. (my own institution now offers the Ph.D. instead of the Ed.D. and the coursework did not change) and is most often used for academic settings. I am not sure that RA academic settings would then turn around and accept an Ed.D. that was not academic in nature. Although the Ed.D. is often referred to as a first professional degree, that is not actually a reasonable representation of what occurs at most institutions.

 

Lots of teachers might be able to put that degree to use. Also, many Ed.D. holders work in private industry. (Our CLO has one from Virginia Tech.)

 

Here is an addition to my list of RA faculty members with non RA degrees...Admittedly, these dudes have Master's degrees from RA schools but the schools certainly list their doctorates and the doctorate school is not accredited by anyone that I know of (DETC, RA, TRACS, etc).

At University of Louisiana Monroe,
http://www.ulm.edu/construction/ensminger.htm
"Dr. Ensminger joined the School of Construction faculty in the fall semester 2001. Dr. Ensminger graduated from the ULM School of Construction in 1973. He received his Master's in Education from ULM in 1988, his Education Specialist's Degree, also from ULM, in 1990, and his Ph.D. in Education from the Louisiana Baptist University in 2004. "

Also, Robert Hudson at Southern University...
http://www.susla.edu/academicaffairs/faculty/h/hudson_r.html
Education:
B.S., Southern University
M.S., Stanford University
Ph.D., Louisiana Baptist University

 

So, why post a message about a non-DETC, non-accredited, doctorate teaching at an RA school? Because the question has been brought up on the usefulness of a DETC doctorate. If RA schools are hiring non-accredited doctorates to teach then I would assume that a DETC doctorate would be highly useful.

The schools certainly don't seem to be too embarrassed by the fact that these people have un-accredited degrees either. They are right there on the faculty listing.

 

Or how about a good DA?

 

Or, whatever they want. If Brit schools can grant a PhD by publication then why not DETC a PhD? Sure, a D.A. is fine, too.

 

Indeed. But do you really think that any American school will ever offer a dissertation-only doctorate, especially when most American professors are just plain too ignorant to even conceptualize that British doctorates are dissertation only?

 

likely not. just won't happen here.

bing

 

You can't assume that, either. You don't know whether or not the listing represents an explicit approval by the school or (as we've frequently found) the school doesn't know the faculty member lists the degree in question on his/her webpage and/or description. Many times the content is provided by the faculty member. Hired on the real master's, list the fake doctorate, wait for someone to point it out.

 

It's reasonable to assume that anything on the school's website, especially faculty listing, is the responsibility of the school. If there is something on my company's website then we are responsible for that. In fact, we'll get sued if something is wrong. We can't use the excuse of "We didn't know". I'm not discounting that, though. They might not know. Yet, I bet they do with these guys because of the schools locations.

Contact the schools and then we'll know in a week or so whether or not that is the case. If they don't condone then ...wham! The Dr. title is gone.

another one...
I recall, a Dr. John Russ up at North Carolina State University. He had a PhD in engineering from Cal Coast. He taught there and had dr. on everything at NCSU...not just from him, but referred to as Dr. by others. Then, he was at Univ of Alabama doing teaching/consulting or something. I think he's retired now. I think he has a site drjohnruss.com. Did a lot of consulting to drug companies, too.

 

So? You're not providing any evidence that either school approved of--and accepted--his CCU doctorate. Can you show positive, not inferred, evidence? Some sort of documentation from the school of it, perhaps? While many things can be reasonably concluded through inferrence, in this case we have much evidence to the contrary, and direct (not inferred) evidence at that.

 

Interesting thread...I have come late into the discussion, but could not resist putting in my 1 1/2 cents

Originally posted by airtorn

I am curious what pay scale they work from. Does their DETC degree qualify them to be paid at the masters level? Will a community college instructor with a RA masters and a DETC doctorate get paid at the masters or doctoral level?

Hi airtorn,

From over seven years on hiring boards at community colleges in California, my observation is that the issue was always whether the degree was accredited or unaccredited from an accrediting body recognized by USDOE and/or CHEA. If someone with a DETC degree would be hired, that degree would be used to establish the pay scale. I saw faculty hired with degrees from unaccredited schools, such as Newport and Lawrence and their degrees were not recognized by the college. They were paid according to their highest accredited degree.

Originally posted by Ted Heiks

Dunno. Any schools out there pay some of their profs less because their doc was from Freindly Neighborhood State University vs. Prestigious Ivy Grad School? (Insert tongue-in-cheek smiley.) My point being, most employers dislike having to make qualitatitative decisions re employee compensation because quantitative decisions are so much easier.

Hi Ted,

In my 18 years working in higher ed institutions, I have never seen that happen. In fact, such a practice would be a violation of the faculty collective bargaining agreement (contract). Where differences occur is among different departments/disciplines (e.g. business professors often make more than English professors) and among faculty rank (Full Professors tend to make more than Associate or Assistant Professors). However, two professor at the same rank in the same department, one with a doctorate from Montana State and the other from Yale, would make the same.

Originally posted by Bill Dayson

I don't really understand the practitioner-related-degree/Ph.D. distinction.

Hi Bill,

Most practitioner degrees are offered at the first professional level (e.g. JD, PharmD, DVM, DPM, etc.) Ph.D. and other research doctorates (there are a number of them) typically require one to engage in an original research study leading up to a dissertation. A few programs do allow for a different culminating activity instead of the dissertation, but they are not the norm.

Originally posted by Rich Douglas

I'm not sure scientific examples are relevant; DETC doesn't seem to be accrediting degree programs in such areas.

It is clear that many, many doctorate holders do not work in academia and ply their degrees in either government or the private sector. I don't see why degrees from DETC-accredited schools wouldn't be as useful (or nearly) as those from other DL doctorate-granting schools like the ones typically discussed here.

Hi Rich,

I would agree with this view. I have worked in both academia and business and have worked with doctorates in both. When I was working as an instructional designer at Intel Corp., my boss had a doctorate in instructional technology from USC. I know several in law enforcement and their DL doctorates have been an asset to them.

Originally posted by obecve

The university of Nebraska has a J.D./Ph.D. in Psychology.

I am not sure an Ed.D. at the DETC level would make much sense. It has essentially become the same degree as a Ph.D. (my own institution now offers the Ph.D. instead of the Ed.D. and the coursework did not change) and is most often used for academic settings. I am not sure that RA academic settings would then turn around and accept an Ed.D. that was not academic in nature. Although the Ed.D. is often referred to as a first professional degree, that is not actually a reasonable representation of what occurs at most institutions.

Hi Michael,

You are right about the Ed.D. After 80+ years, it never became the practitioner degree that it was designed to be. It has always been a research degree, equivalent to the Ph.D. in education. It is not, nor has ever been, a first professional degree, although many do consider it a lesser degree than the Ph.D. (even though there is no shred of evidence to back up this view). There is a current trend of converting Ed.D. programs into Ph.D. In every case that I have seen, there has been to change in the program, other than the degree’s name. In my opinion, it would be a disaster to try to re-do the Ed.D. as a non-dissertation practitioner’s degree. Two options would be to have the Ed.S. or D.A. or maybe a D.A.T. (doctor of arts in teaching) as a follow-up to M.A.T. degrees.

Cheers all,

Tony

 

Bill, to me, the distinction between the two (as they relate to business) is that it is quite different to study management and leadership than it is to practice it. The PhD demonstrates understanding of research and leads to academic pursuits while the DBA is intended as advanced training for those who practice the craft in the field. Of course, there are always cross-overs and the lines aren't hard and fast.

 

(1) Good. That is the way it ought to be. On the other hand, it might be a difficult sell getting a DETC doctorate-holder hired by an RA B&M school.

(2) My post that you comment upon was a tongue-in-cheek attempt at pointing out the ludicrousness of arguements over relative degrees of prestige.

(3) Don't some "professional doctorates" offer a more practical, applied dissertation (DBA, DM, EdD)? Also, it is not entirely true that professional doctorates (JD, MD) never require a dissertation. I have seen in an old University of Washington catalog (1984-2001 time frame) an honors MD with dissertation and I'm sure I've seen an honors JD with dissertation somewhere. These, however, are, of course, the exception rather than the rule.

(4) What sorts of DETC doctorates, other than the DBA, might be useful in the private sector?

(5) I know that the EdD never became a professional doctorate in the same sense as the JD or the MD (90 sem hrs/135 qtr hrs of coursework, no dissertation), but isnt the EdD dissertation more practical and applied compared to the more theoretical PhD dissertation? Or has even that distinction disappeared? What is a DAT degree? I thought that the DA was supposed to be a teaching doctorate, so the DAT (Doctor of Arts in Teaching) seems perhaps just a little bit redundant.

 

Um. Maybe I misunderstand here, but I thought DETC already accredits so-called "professional doctorates" like the J.D. Actually, ONLY the J.D., come to think of it.

But I am not thinking about the J.D.; I am talking about what I have come to call a "professional/dissertation" doctorate, by which I mean an advanced dissertation degree that is NOT the same thing as a Ph.D. (Or Ed.D., I guess) My example is the J.S.D.

 

What documentation do you want? For me to provide his hiring contract? Next time you enter into a consulting contract with a company be so kind as to send me a copy of it so I can peruse it, please. The documentation I provide is from the school's own engineering website listing him as faculty. That's documented stuff. I can show that he worked for an RA university and prove that their website, the school of engineering website, shows that he is listed as faculty, and shows that he has the title of "Dr.", fully listing his PhD from CCU.

You would have to show proof, not me, that these schools in question do not have control of their web content and have no idea who is doing what on it. So, I ask you to prove that the school does not accept his doctorate.

He has worked in the trade and his communications from the companies he has consulted with(he is in my company's database of experts with all of his credentials listed) are all in the title of "Dr." with full knowledge that his PhD was from CalCoast(an unaccredited school at the time.).

Yes. I have posted here long enough to know that schools have hired people in, and listed their possibly bogus credentials. Are you suggesting this guy did not work for his doctorate? I really cannot comment on it because I have never seen his dissertation.

I fully believe, and agree, with Tony Pina's posting on the hiring of faculty, too. My guess is that this guy MIGHT have been hired in with his RA MS degree(for pay purposes). How do you know that this guy was not hired in above another person with an MS degree in engineering BECAUSE of his PhD...albeit from an unaccredited school? But, the fact remains that his doctorate is still documented in the engineering web content and other places in the school system...at both universities, and at three highly federally regulated companies.

Even if we have shown that there have been schools that did not know of the bogusness of a degree(btw, have we proven on this board that the schools did not know about the degrees? what legit school in their right mind would admit to it even if so) that doesn't make it so in this case. We have certainly seen people get fired after we brought the stink to the nose, though. (i'm maybe playing a little devil's advocate here)

 

I've always thought that it would make a good fantasy if Southwest University would revive their doctorate in entrepreneurship as a DBA program. Or maybe AMU could revive their proposed DMS program.

 

Re: Re: DETC Doctorate Pilot

Or maybe the College of the Humanities and Sciences could offer a DA in Humanities and a DA in Social Sciences.

 

Originally posted by Ted Heiks


(1) Good. That is the way it ought to be. On the other hand, it might be a difficult sell getting a DETC doctorate-holder hired by an RA B&M school.

You're probably right. Things could change over time if the universities offering the DETC doctorate were to practice the kind of scholarship expected of RA PhDs. I am skeptical, but, you never know. I don't mind the idea of a viable alternative to the regionals, just as long as it isn't just "RA Lite". I am afraid that the DETC doctorates may become just that.

(2) My post that you comment upon was a tongue-in-cheek attempt at pointing out the ludicrousness of arguements over relative degrees of prestige.

You made an excellent point.

(3) Don't some "professional doctorates" offer a more practical, applied dissertation (DBA, DM, EdD)? Also, it is not entirely true that professional doctorates (JD, MD) never require a dissertation. I have seen in an old University of Washington catalog (1984-2001 time frame) an honors MD with dissertation and I'm sure I've seen an honors JD with dissertation somewhere. These, however, are, of course, the exception rather than the rule.

I can't really comment on the DBA, since it is out of my discipline. Many DMs are awarded in vocal or instrumental performance, which does not necessarily involve research. That may be the ultimate manifestation of an "applied" project in place of the dissertation. Another one to throw in the mix is the PsyD. in psychology.

It is possible that there are J.D. and M.D. programs with dissertation components, but I have never seen one. Law dissertation are usually done to complete an S.J.D. (or J.S.D.) degree. Dissertations in the field of medicine tend to be done as part of a during a post-MD Ph.D. program. The nature of those professional programs (e.g. 90 units of coursework over a three yer period for the J.D.) would preclude the ability for one to conduct any kind of decent dissertation study during that time.

I can comment on the Ed.D. vs. the PhD. because I have some years of research into that topic. There are a few Ed.D. programs and Ph.D. programs in education that allow for an alternative to the research dissertation, but they are a very small minority. The largest study done comparing over 1,900 Ed.D. vs. Ph.D. doctorates did not support the fact that Ed.D. dissertations were any more applied that those for Ph.D.s.

(4) What sorts of DETC doctorates, other than the DBA, might be useful in the private sector?

Perhaps the PsyD? DMin?

(5) I know that the EdD never became a professional doctorate in the same sense as the JD or the MD (90 sem hrs/135 qtr hrs of coursework, no dissertation), but isnt the EdD dissertation more practical and applied compared to the more theoretical PhD dissertation? Or has even that distinction disappeared?

That distinction was never really there in the first place. From almost the very beginning of the degree's existence in the 1920s, the Ed.D. dissertations were research based, just like the Ph.D. in education that they were designed to replace (but never did). If I was to show you 10 dissertation titles or research designs (five Ed.D. and five Ph.D.), I doubt that anyone would be able to distinguish enough between them to classify them as either Ed.D. or Ph.D.

The JD requires 135 qtr hours post BA. My Ed.D. required a minimum of 132, including 12 qtr hours of research dissertation.

What is a DAT degree? I thought that the DA was supposed to be a teaching doctorate, so the DAT (Doctor of Arts in Teaching) seems perhaps just a little bit redundant.

Yes, you are right. It would be. There are many (including myself), that feel that the Ed.D. is also a redundant degree. I just happened to choose a university that did not offere a Ph.D. in my field. However, since I had previously been a student in a Ph.D. program at a large state university (until a job change required me to move to a different state and find a different university), I had the opportunity to compare the two experiences firsthand.

Tony Pina, Ed.D.