Competence

Hi Jack:

Sorry, I ignored your reply earlier. In fact I think your points were good anyway.

My concerns are the issues of assumption. If people stop assuming my motive we probably could have a more productive discussion. Let me clear some points.

1. I am not all out advocating acceptance of degrees soley by PLA as we know it.

2. I do not agree with most of the known diploma mills that experience automatically equals a degree.

Here is what I am saying and also to address your new points.

1. I am saying that consideration should be given to grant degrees on competence instead of the traditional credit system. Obviously these means a person owuld need to prove qualified to enter this type of programme. Meaning you would get a portfolio with all the courses, work accomplishments upfront.

2. Once a person is accepted in such programme, they would need to make up for the areas of competence missing or not proven. In the case of city & Guilds, they are required to write a paper of varying word number based on the initial assessment. After completing the paper, they can then attend an interview to defend the paper..

3. The issue I am saying is that in the UK, there are several options offered by regular universities for someone to get a credential especially graduate.

Again, lets be fair, if you look at the degree structure for various countries its very different. In Engineering the US and UK degrees are different for sure. The US requires more General Education requirements than the UK version.

This means, since the UK version is more specialty based, an experience person could match the requirements quicker with some basic work.

I have pointed out on here before that TESC offers the option to get a full degree via PLA..

To answer your question about assessment, I would go for the Paper based approach today. I could change, but thats the best I can think now. The other option maybe doing interviews in the various areas.

In the end, I think US schools should offer more research based graduate degrees as is done in UK and Australia especially.

What do you think of the City & Guilds Senior Awards as a degree awarding approach?

 

I think that, properly handled, US schools might do well by offering research based grad degrees. Some students might have some problem with prerequisites but that's not a difficult problem to solve, in my opinion.

I know virtually nothing about City and Guilds awards. When I hear this term I imagine an antiquated system that was given a very small, seldom used niche inside the British higher education system, a system that has some similarities, but is not identical to the US system.
Jack

 

Hi Jack:

Now we are getting somewhere.

Here is the City and Guilds website.. Check out Learners then Senior Awards..

http://www.city-and-guilds.co.uk/servlet/page?_pageid=680&_dad=cg2&_schema=PORTAL30

As you can see, they are not a university but a professional body.

There are many exams in the UK accepted as degree equivalent. If you look closely its not exactly the same structure as a degree, but the body of knowledge would be similar.

In respect to so called PLA based degree, there are several approaches that can be taken. Since I am in Computers I will use that example..

A person with good Systems Administration experience and training would probably qualify for a degree in Systems Administration. This means its not computer Science or engineering but if they apply for an administration job, the credential is right there in that area.. Same thing for programming or hardware repair etc..

This could apply to any field, not just the so-called vocational ones..

 

My only reply at this time is that a degree in Systems Administration involves more than simply competence in Systems Administration. It involves knowledge of math and various sciences, languages, humanities and the arts. These are common degree requirements in virtually all US universities. How will you demonstrate competence in these areas?
Jack

 

A great many CEO's have only a Bachelors. Even in the tech industry, it is unusual for a CEO to have anything more than a Masters. The reason - most Ph.D's are technical (sciences, etc) and usually don't have the business savvy to run a corporation.

Even the CEO of Boston Scientific (a medical devices company)only has a Bachelors.

 

Hi Jack:

If you look at Western Governors University, you will notice that they are different from the norm in respect to courses. They seem to focus on the subjects that would make someone successful in the specific area of specialization.

That comes back to my initial point about competence. What do you need to be a good doctor or engineer etc.. This means if you really want to make an effect program, you need to be open to changing the norm.

As I said, its not mandatory for all schools to follow the same program.

 

What comes first to my mind upon reading your post above is that you have once again completely refused to answer a simple, direct question.
Jack

 

The guy's a troll.

He's trying to make a point by brute force.

He's not listening.

He's not getting it.

On purpose.

 

Hi Jack:

Sorry, was your question about assessing general education requirements?

I am not trying to avoid questions actually, I willing to learn and accept been wrong.

My simple answer..

Use standard exams or Workshop/Challenge exams.. In any case you can still get a large portion of specialization from PLA type approach.

On the other hand..

If you use a UK type program structure then you may not have any issue with those..

I strongly believe if you have a weakness after assessment a class is a valid path..

Maybe what I am trying to say is that we should look at degrees in respect to levels of maturity and mastery of a body of knowledge in the area of interest..

I think stuff like problem solving, communication, reasoning, basic research, presentation skills or good areas for GER type.. This would help you to fit into any situation on the job or school.


Hi Gregg:

Obviously, you are not finished with school yet or you took the wrong courses.

I have a good discussion with Jack and Tony without insults, but eveytime you respond, its like I am an idiot..

 

In regards to the first part of your answer above, you seem to be advocating for a program structure whereby people can use a formal exam process (like CLEPs) and could also use a formal PLA process (like portfolios) as well. I'm not an expert on the "big 3" but isn't this essentially what they already do? (at least one of them). Isn't your suggestion simply reinventing a wheel that is already widely known and utilized?

In regards to the second part of you answer above, I hope you realize that the US higher education system is not suddenly going to shift toward the UK system simply because a remarkably small percentage of students might somehow benefit. You are suggesting a wholesale change in the educational structure of the country, away from the standard liberal arts "well-rounded student" concept and toward the more focused UK approach simply for what, a couple of hundred students per year? Why can't they just enroll in one of the big 3 and use CLEP/Dante exams and the portfolio process to document their PLA? You're talking as if there were thousands and thousands of people who are helpless in their efforts to earn a degree because there is no way for them to document their prior learning. This simply isn't the case. You might like this to be a more widespread process but I've never seen any indication that the present system is inadequate to handle such cases (or numbers).
Jack

 

No. Again, you're wrong. It's not like you're an idiot.

 

Hi Jack:

I am not really counting numbers at this point. Nther do I expect the whole system to shift.

I am just highlighting the fact that there can be flexibility in how things are done..

Some schools like WGU has change the approach from the way you know it, so its not impossible.

Even though the big 3 does this, its still in the context of a credit based system, its a lot more work than taking classes..

What I am trying to drive at is a more efficient and high standard way to qualify people. It would benefit the regular thousands as well as the hundreds..

 

I'd like to take this point by point.

You say that you're not really counting numbers but then you say that this would benefit thousands. I'd challenge your assertion. My reasoning is that if there really was such a high demand then there would be a response from the system. So far, the only person I see asking for this radical change is you.

You say that you are just trying to highlight the fact that there can be flexibility in the way things are done. I am pointing out to you that there already is flexibility and that the very system you're promoting is already in use. There is no indication that more flexibility is really needed. Again, it's just you, without any data to support your assertions.

You say that it's not impossible to make these changes. Of course it's not impossible. The problem is that making these changes would cost lots and lots of money and there's no clear evidence that this expense is necessary.

You don't like the "credit based system" yet it works for the vast majority of people. You love the City and Guilds system. Why don't you give us some data as to how many "degrees" they grant every year (verifiable, of course) I'll bet it's not many.

You say that your proposed method is more efficient but you've presented no data to support this. I can easily imagine that your method would result in gross inefficiency and chaos.

Overall you've got this fantasy idea that some City & Guilds / Robert de Sorbon clone is going to rise up and save hundreds of thousands of people from the terrible fate that is the US higher education system. None of that is true and none of it will happen. There is no reason to believe that there is a real need for such a system and there is no reason to believe that anyone (other than you) has an interest in such a system. There are already a number of flexible systems in use and every indication is that these are adequate. Unless you are prepared to present some real data, as opposed to your mere opinions or wishes, then I am content to leave this topic where it belongs, in the fantasy pile.
Jack

 

Hi Jack:

I am very busy, so I do not have time to research exact numbers but the fact that diploma mills exist tells me that there is a reasonable need or maybe those people are ignorant of whats available.

From my own observation, I think it all comes down to economics not academic integrity.

What you do not realize is that a lot of adults that decide to take classes, do so because they have no choice or as I mention ignorant of the flexibility that you mentioned.

Let me make the following points again.

1. Universities and colleges are very good as they are, anyone should get their degree in whatever field as soon as possible after high school.

2. For those persons who switched career or went straight into the workplace, then the need arises for alternative approaches to demonstrate learning.

What I do not get with your responses, is the possibility that anything can be done differently.

Going back to the VAE system and forget Sorbon for a minute, its a new system since it was started in 2000 meaning that overtime governments or schools will try to make things better for the learner.

Do you know that the City & Guilds concept is based on the regular research degree approach used in the UK? Do you think anything is wrong with it?

In the US, school is driven by money not necessarily better quality. All you have to do, is make sure you passed your finals etc. In the end you may be just as dumb as if you did not take the courses.

This is why they now have Certified MBA on top of just having an MBA..

Quick question. What is the flexibility you are talking about? Forget the big 3 for a minute and tell me.

Remember there was resistance to Distance learning and even PLA, today they are well accepted. Change is inevitable.

 

No facts, no data, no time to do research (although it seems that you've got plenty of time to crank out post after post after post) only time for fanciful thinking about transforming the educational system of the country. You say that it seems to be about economics. Hopefully you're not just catching on to the fact that we live in a capitalistic society. EVERYTHING is about money, like it or not. All you've got is a bunch of half-baked, ill-informed ideas that only reflect some sort of utopian vision of "flexible" education. As far as I'm concerned, if you can't support these silly ideas with facts then you should let it drop. I'm done.
Jack

 

Hi Jack:

We are back to square one. No wonder people with open mind avoid here. Tony's thinking is definitely different from yours.

In respect Ideas and facts. I am not from the UK but the fact shows many universities and professional bodies practicing the ideas I mentioned. I did not manufacture those ideas actually.

Many countries have similar system to this.

I am sure Robet De Sorbon and other schools of this like has many applicants. This means there is an interest. People probably prefer to no make bread out of stone on here.

You keep saying its fantasy but I have seen some changes or new ideas at some accredited schools here.

Its not radical change its just common sense

 

You are the one that is not "open minded". Many here have agreed with you on some points, and disagreed with you on other points, and because of this we are all ignorant of your important message. From what I infer your message is everyone on this site is closed minded and lacks your superior insight, as we disagree with you on some points of your argument. Your all or nothing approach is the very definition of closed minded thought process.

We all agree that education can be gained or learned from alternative methods, which is what this board is based on. It is how to evaluate and measure this knowledge, and what the bar should be to issue a "degree" where we disagree, and you have offered very little in this area of the discussion.

As for the certified MBA exam, I do not know anyone that has taken this exam, nor do I know anyone who graduated from a RA or RA/AACSB school who plans to take this exam. This "certification" will never become popular I believe, it is like asking an undergraduate to take a "certified college graduate exam". In the case of say, a CPA where you are licensed, then I see the purpose of the exam, e.g. CPA exam.

William

 

Hi Parker:

Whatever your name. You keep saying that I have offered nothing but I have referred to many sources that does the stuff I mentioned.

Does anyone in the US, use the VAE as it is proposed in France? As I mentioned again look at the many British instituions that offer options to do this..

I am very aware of the difficulty to validate or assess some areas but there are known ways in other places.

I am not re-inventing the wheel actually.

As Jack admitted its economics. Then if thats the case then why make it seem that I am just a fantasy. I am sure distance learning was seen as a bad thing years ago, now its growing leaps and bounds

 

If you would look at my name, it is William, not that difficult.

William

 

Hi William:

Sorry if I messed up your name.

All I am saying is that there are proven ways in other places. No need to go over data etc..