Capella University

sulla · May 15, 2006

Originally posted by simon
There is something very questionable about the practice of "washing" out students in online doctoral programs in Psychology (or for that matter any doctoral program). The fact is that many online doctoral programs in Psychology have very open and inclusive admission policies (many accept students with a minimum of a 3.0 GPA and DETC degrees and no GREs). GENERALLY, students accepted into these online programs would not be admitted into comparable brick and mortar doctoral programs.
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I know you know this, but also remember that the average student at these schools is about 40-45 years old with full time jobs, children, and many of them live in rural areas or live overseas and can't attend a traditional program. In fact, I met several students that are stationed in Iraq. There are also plenty of students that are faculty at community colleges and masters level universities and simply want the PhD to get a promotion or for personal satisfaction.

So it is not a matter of doing an academically questionable student a favor by admitting him/her into a doctoral program but of the school gaining financially regardless of the outcome.
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The school is consistently making changes. Financially speaking, I don't think its in the school's best interests to continue to attract these students that do not perform well academically. In the short run, the school makes money but in the long run they continue to run the risk of expensive lawsuits. The school seems to be serious about building a solid reputation as evidenced by their quest for the prestigious APA accreditation, and I really don't think they want to continue to go through the hassle of dealing with difficult students. In fact, I was informed by the dean of the school of psychology that the PsyD program in clinical psychology is becoming more selective.

simon · May 15, 2006

Originally posted by BlackBird
Simon, I have experienced similar in my early first class or two. Once the rigor and length increased, these types fell by the wayside. I think the system washes them out, eventually!

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Blackbird, the course I completed was on an advanced doctoral level, not an entry or immediate level. In addition the majority of student participants were in the final phase of their doctoral program. These students were permitted to take this advanced course without demonstrating the requiste writing and analytical skills that would have enabled them to receive a a high school diploma!

Please note that I am not engaging in hyperbole when I describe this experience. I was in disbelief that these students were not previously weeded out by their mentors or course instructors. I am not exagerating when I state that many of these students were not able to write a coherent sentence including the appropriate use of punctuation, let alone APA style writing format! At approximately $4,000 for the course (an amount significantly higher than tuiton for a similar course at Coumbia university, an Ivy League school) one should expect that the level of academic competency amongst students would be roughly equivalent. Furthermore, as I mentioned in a previous post when the instructor of this course admonished a number of these students for such shoddy academic work, one student "created" a poll in an attempt to undermine this faculty member's credibility by inquiring of his peers whether the instructor was attuned to the academic needs of minority students. This was grossly unacceptable to me and a complete turn off!

simon · May 15, 2006

Originally posted by GME

Hi,

I have absolutely no independent confirmation of this, but the former head of the psych program stated to me that Capella has an unpublished policy of refunding tuition to learners the school drops from the program (only during their first quarter, btw and if the student dropped there was no refund).

Inclusive admissions is certainly a two edged sword. It opens the door to many who could not otherwise attend. But the fact that those doing the admitting are financially profiting from the transaction certainly should be a consideration.

Re: tuiton costs. I dunno. Capella is less expensive than the private B&M university I work for, and we are the least expensive private university in Los Angeles. In fact, I think Capella is less expensive than the graduate tuition charged to out of state grad students in the University of California and Cal State systems.

Regards,
GME [/QUOTE)

In general, tuition is very high for many of these online doctoral programs as are the profit margins.

I am all for giving students an opportunity to progress in their educational goals by offering inclusive admissions. However this should apply to applicants seeking community college and bachelor degree level programs. Remedial academic programs are also very helpful and justified at this academic level. However, when we are discussing readiness for doctoral level participation, it is my perception that a student should be able to demonstrate the academic skill potential without need for remediation or preferential admissions criteria! If this is the case it reduces the value of the doctorate, a degree that represents the highest order of scholarly attainment, as well as impacting on the perceptions of others as to the competency of individuals who possess such doctorates.
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SteveFoerster · May 15, 2006

Originally posted by GME
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It seems to me that one may feel somewhat defensive about any non-traditional degree.

One might. I know that if I were planning to have a conventional academic career in the U.S., I wouldn't be considering South African schools and the University of the West Indies as places to do doctoral work. It wouldn't be because they're not as academically rigorous as American schools, because that's not so. It would be because of my concern that they would be erroneous perceived as such and I would suffer for it, however undeservedly.

Re: for profit. Perhaps this is less of an issue in psychology, since most of the private psyd programs are for-profit.

Perhaps -- Clinical Psychology isn't my field. I do know that the hiring dean for the online campus where I used to work would summarily trash resumes with Capella on them as part of the filtering process. So I guess if you want to practice, it's fine, but if you want to teach, be wary.

-=Steve=-

PhD2B · May 15, 2006

Re: Re: Capella University

Originally posted by SteveFoerster
I know that if I were planning to have a conventional academic career in the U.S., I wouldn't be considering South African schools and the University of the West Indies as places to do doctoral work. It wouldn't be because they're not as academically rigorous as American schools, because that's not so. It would be because of my concern that they would be erroneous perceived as such and I would suffer for it, however undeservedly.
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Steve,

Just out of curiosity, have you considered one of the many university choices you have available to you in D.C.? My list of possible local doctoral programs is very limited since I live in a rural area, but I would think you would have many local options.

simon · May 15, 2006

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simon · May 15, 2006

Originally posted by simon

SIMON: However, there is a bottomline and that is money and I do mean considerable amounts of money that results from admitting many students with low GPAs and without a GRE requirement. We know that it is not possible to weed out every applicant who potentially does not possess the "right stuff" academically to complete their doctoral program. However, what we find in many online doctoral Psychology programs, with the possible exception of Fielding, is a very inclusive and open admission policy that does not weed out certain students who obviously are not doctoral material.

BTW, don't be so impressed by a school seeking APA accreditation. At one time, holding an APA doctorate in Clinical or Counseling Psychology was a very prestigious attainment. However, with the advent of proprietary for-profit free standing graduate schools offering doctorates in Psychology, standards for admission to these programs was significantly decreased as was the academic caliber of many of their students. In fact, the final project that is required for the Psy.D in many universities, in lieu of the dissertation, is no way commensurate with the scholarly research requirements for a Ph.D.

In the 1960s and seventies an acceptance into an APA doctoral level psychology program was considered more difficult than obtaining admission into medical school. This is no longer the case. Psychologists do not command very high salaries as field and private practitioners and are in constant competition for clients with Social workers, Psychiatrists and more recently with Licensed Mental Health Counselors who in addition to providing psychodiagnostic assessments and therapeutic interventions can also conduct comprehensive test batteries. Unless one obtains a tenured academic position with a university as well as holding a successful private practice this profession is not as lucrative as it once was.

It is also my impression that the APA has become an organization that is more focused on socio-political issues than on the needs and plight of its constituents.
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GME · May 15, 2006

Originally posted by simon

Originally posted by GME

In general, tuition is very high for many of these online doctoral programs as are the profit margins.

I am all for giving students an opportunity to progress in their educational goals by offering inclusive admissions. However this should apply to applicants seeking community college and bachelor degree level programs. Remedial academic programs are also very helpful and justified at this academic level. However, when we are discussing readiness for doctoral level participation, it is my perception that a student should be able to demonstrate the academic skill potential without need for remediation or preferential admissions criteria! If this is the case it reduces the value of the doctorate, a degree that represents the highest order of scholarly attainment, as well as impacting on the perceptions of others as to the competency of individuals who possess such doctorates.
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Hi,

No disagreement on the high cost of tuition. Personally, I think it should be free. However, not sure that online schools are significantly more expensive than private B&M schools. It is also my impression that the profit margins are not particularly wide, but don't have any definite numbers on this.

Univ of London offers a wealth of grad programs that have a pretty inclusive admissions policy and which are presented on a sink or swim basis, so there certainly is a model for inclusiveness and rigor. Of course, they are heavily subsidized by the government.

Think perhaps the 'for profits admit unqualified and B&M don't' is more perception than reality. Not that the for-profits -dont'- do this, but that the B&M schools do also. The for-profit vs. non-profit is something of a false dichotomy. State universities (particularly the land grant ones) receive funding based upon enrollment and you can bet there is enormous pressure to fill seats. Not defending it, merely noting it.

There was a PBS (think Frontline) program titled something like 'Failing by degrees' that explored this issue.

As for Capella, in particular. (Again, note I certainly have a bias) it seems to me they are making a serious effort to continually increase the academic standards of the programs. An example would be their voluntary participation in the NCA's continous quality improvement effort that essentially has them engaged in program reviews on a continual basis.

Regards,
GME
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RFValve · May 15, 2006

Originally posted by GME

Think perhaps the 'for profits admit unqualified and B&M don't' is more perception than reality. Not that the for-profits -dont'- do this, but that the B&M schools do also. The for-profit vs. non-profit is something of a false dichotomy. State universities (particularly the land grant ones) receive funding based upon enrollment and you can bet there is enormous pressure to fill seats. Not defending it, merely noting it.

GME
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I agree, at the end of the day it is the need of "money" that puts pressure on the Universities. Many B&M schools are also experiencing the global competition and being forced to low GMAT requirements to remain in business.

In Canada, due to the low birth rates, we are being forced to admit less qualified students just to keep our jobs.

At the end of the day it is a matter of survival!

sulla · May 15, 2006

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Capella University

Originally posted by jimnagrom

Blackbird,

And I have nothing against you, but I posted my experiences and observations and they were (and are) exactly that.

Go to the CHE and you will find multiple example of Capella (or Union) being used as a negative example - and in the job market - perception IS reality.
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Could you please provide us with the *exact* links to these articles/examples that you speak of from the CHE home page? thanks.

sulla · May 15, 2006

Originally posted by RFValve

At the end of the day it is a matter of survival!
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Hi RFValve,

I agree with that. Its a jungle out there and its a matter of survival!

-S

sulla · May 15, 2006

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Capella University

Originally posted by SteveFoerster

That's the bottom line for me. I don't want a doctorate that I'll have to defend. That means any of the for-profit ones, even if they are academically all right.

-=Steve=-
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In today's world, you might have to defend your degree no matter where it came from and in what. I know students from Europe that think that American degrees are substandard, especially if they come from a tier-3 or 4 school. Snobbery also still exists with DL degrees and you might have to defend it against skeptics.
And then we have people boasting about how they are making more money than college grads...or people saying that schools of education have it a lot easier than graduates in other disciplines, and the list goes on and its never ending.

sulla · May 15, 2006

Originally posted by BlackBird
Simon, I have experienced similar in my early first class or two. Once the rigor and length increased, these types fell by the wayside. I think the system washes them out, eventually!

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There was a lady though that made frequent gramatical errors. It turned out that she was in her 50s, had problems with her eyes and difficulty staring at the monitor for long periods of time. However, her final project was very professional and well put together.

SteveFoerster · May 15, 2006

Re: Re: Re: Capella University

Originally posted by PhD2B
Just out of curiosity, have you considered one of the many university choices you have available to you in D.C.? My list of possible local doctoral programs is very limited since I live in a rural area, but I would think you would have many local options.
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I do, and there are three here I'm considering:

1. University of Maryland at College Park. They're ranked 24th by U.S. News (for what that's worth), but I don't live in Maryland, and out of state tuition would be pretty pricy. They also require a lot of coursework, and have no Spring start, so it would take an extra year or more to finish through them. They're also insufferably inconvenient for me -- it's not that far as the crow flies, but D.C. has hideous traffic.

2. George Washington University. I'm going here for my Master's already, so one might think it an obvious choice. However, despite their high rank (currently 21st) I've only been so impressed by them, and they're very expensive. Moreover, neither their main campus in town nor their Virginia campus would be convenient, and when we're talking about several times a week for three years, that's non-trivial.

3. George Mason University. I attended one of their information sessions, and liked what I saw. They've been steadily gaining in reputation in the fourteen years since I was in high school nearby, at which time they were seen as a safety school -- their rank went from 73rd last year to 66th this year, and I'll bet it will keep going up while I'm there. Also, they've established a Center for International Education that suggests they're trying to position themselves as the regional leader in that sub-discipline, and since that's my area of interest it's enticing. And they're inexpensive since I live in Virginia. This is my favorite local choice.

It's also possible to get a PhD in Education from the University of Virginia here, and they're ranked 19th now. Howard University has a doctorate in education as well. Both, however, are only for those interested in K-12, and I'm not.

Unfortunately, any of these means returning to the dreaded classroom. I've been spoiled by distance learning.

-=Steve=-

jimnagrom · May 15, 2006

Originally posted by GME
I have absolutely no independent confirmation of this, but the former head of the psych program stated to me that Capella has an unpublished policy of refunding tuition to learners the school drops from the program (only during their first quarter, btw and if the student dropped there was no refund).
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This was certainly NOT the case in 2003-4.

jimnagrom · May 15, 2006

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Capella University

Originally posted by sulla

Could you please provide us with the *exact* links to these articles/examples that you speak of from the CHE home page? thanks.
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If I happen accross them again (they've been posted here at DegreeInfo) I'll be glad to...or if you are willing to pay me for my time...I'd be glad to.

sulla · May 15, 2006

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Capella University

Originally posted by jimnagrom

If I happen accross them again (they've been posted here at DegreeInfo) I'll be glad to...or if you are willing to pay me for my time...I'd be glad to.
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Well then, does anyone have the link to the thread that Jim is referencing to? Is there one? Jim apparently does not remember.

GME · May 16, 2006

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Capella University

Originally posted by sulla

Well then, does anyone have the link to the thread that Jim is referencing to? Is there one? Jim apparently does not remember.
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I just went over to the CHE website and searched for Capella and came up with 37 hits. Judging by article titles none seem to be a critique of the school's quality.

Regards,
GME

GME · May 16, 2006

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Capella University

Originally posted by GME

I just went over to the CHE website and searched for Capella and came up with 37 hits. Judging by article titles none seem to be a critique of the school's quality.

Regards,
GME
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I just did a search of degree.info for capella and che and the only hit was this thread.

Regards,
GME

sulla · May 16, 2006

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Capella University

Originally posted by jimnagrom

If I happen accross them again (they've been posted here at DegreeInfo) I'll be glad to...or if you are willing to pay me for my time...I'd be glad to.
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I think that this is rude. You reference the CHE but deliberately refuse to provide a link to the exact location of the article/s.

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