Can a non RA DL school = a Brick and Mortor RA School in educational Quality?

Hello All from this newcomer:

That is, equal not in utility but in virtue of delivery of instruction.

I have a non RA BA,ThB.

Also I have the Calif Std Teaching Cred, Handicapped Learner Cred. MA in Rel, MDiv(equiv),ThM(which takes 4 yrs grad work, work in two languages,thesis) from four different brick and mortor schools.

Now a year ago at 60 years of age and with 33 years of public school teaching done I've returned to my love of Theology and entered the PhD at a non RA DL (Oregon ok'd) school.

While I feel no constraint to evince my ability to do grad RA work, I am pleased to report that none of my experience with any of the four RA brick and mortor schools surpasses the quality of delivered instruction I now am enjoying. Three classes down, three to go then dissertation. And I'd be happy to compare my course products with anyones at any school. Will everyone acknowledge my (finally) earned doctorate? No! Should they? Maybe!

Best Regards.

Bill Grover,

BA,ThB, Linda Vista
Calif Standard Teaching Credential(Life), Univ of San Diego
Handicapped Learner Credential (also 1/2 EdD work) Oregon State Uinv
MA in Religion, Point Loma Nazarene
MDiv(equiv), ThM, Western CB Seminary
PhD, in progress, Trinity Seminary (indiana)

 

While I understand your personal predicament, to answer your question in general terms, I would have to say, "No."

 

question was "can" ?

I agree..in general "No". My experience likely is unusual. Bill

 

Bill,

I am understanding that you are doing an 18 credit hour doctorate plus dissertation?

Another question, Trinity not too long ago had a note they were pursuing accreditation from a recognized agency. Have you heard anything yet?

North

 

Trinity PhD

Hi

Trinity has given me advanced standing in the PhD. As you may know, a ThM is 1/2 of the work toward the PhD. Many PhDs require approximately 60 hrs beyond MA plus dissertation. I will have finished about 108 hrs beyond the MA plus dissertation. The ThM at Western requires the same prerequisites and hours as the DMin!

Re Trinity"s move toward regional accreditation: They ARE making one. Will they succeed, don"t Know. Frankly in my opinion they do need to beef up some areas! John W. Montgomery, a well known evangelical, who heads up Trinity's European presence has emailed a pal of mine to expect regional accreditation in 2-5 years..I hope it happens.

Thanks for responding.

 

I guess.

Delivery of instruction is kind of vague. It varies according to the professor's teaching skills and student's learning style. It also depends on a students chosen area of interest and the school's strength in that subject.

I have no difficulty at all in thinking of several CA-approved graduate religion programs that I personally find superior to most RA and ATS accredited programs. An example I use is Hsi Lai University in Hacienda Heights. But the superiority I see is due to the fact that the program emphasizes Buddhism rather than Christianity, a subject that you won't find at an ATS seminary pretty much by definition. A Christian may not share my infatuation.

So when we are talking about which program is better than another, we have to be careful to compare like with like. A program that doesn't address your area of interest probably isn't going to offer very good instruction in it.

I have tremendous respect for those who study because of their own personal interest. If you are 60 and don't intend to use the degree professionally, I think that accreditation recedes a little in importance.

While my impression of Trinity College and Seminary isn't very good, I will say that it may fill the needs of an avocational student well.

BTW, has Oregon's ODA approved it?

I draw a strong distinction between education and certification.

Education can occur anywhere. It doesn't really need a university and it isn't dependent on accreditation. Judging its quality is really a personal matter: Does it meet your individual needs? I think that non-accredited schools can sometimes be good educational choices.

But when you start talking about degrees, you are talking about certification. A degree certifies that a student's education has met some socially recognized standard. Degrees are social while education is personal.

The problem with non-accredited schools is that nobody has any real way of knowing what standard must be met to earn their degrees. It might have required excellent work, or it might have required no work at all.
Accreditation is a mechanism that keeps schools on the same page and gives the community some idea of what the degree actually means. Without the external scrutiny implied by accreditation, all we have are students telling us apocryphal and anecdotal stories.

So while I may well follow you in enrolling in a non-RA program for the education (beats solitary reading in a library) I probably wouldn't emphasize the degree.

 

Hi Bill:

Thanks for your reply.

I was in part comparing like to like: My RA Brick Mortor MA in REL and my RA Brick and mortor MDiv(equiv) and ThM with my new program in non RA DL also in Theology!

Yes, Trinity has been approved in Oregon in the sense that grads can use their degrees in religious contexts. According to my letter from alan Contreras this is uncommon allowance for schools not located in Oregon. In my letter Alan further stipulates that Trinity is no degree mill and that students indeed do work for their degrees.

As to the utility of the degree. this depends on the context of usage. There are many pastors, counselors, and educators using Trinity doctorates. Here's an example of the last. James Clark who is academic dean at Calvary Bible College (RA) emails me, "I recommend Trinity as a quality institution." Clark has his PhD from Trinity!

Bill

 

R/A accredited in 2 - 5 years. I would bet against that! Maybe DETC. But, why would you go to Trinity with it past baggage when you could go to a credible school in South Africa and receive the same degree for a fraction of the cost?

But, good luck in your studies........and I, too, am around 60, 1 year shy, and don't understand what age has to do with education.

 

Bill Grover: "I've entered the PhD at a non RA DL (Oregon ok'd)."

Mr. Grover, Trinity is most definitely not approved by Oregon, but rather is exempted as a religious school. In my opinion, there is a world of difference. For instance, LaSalle operated legally as far as Louisiana was concerned, with a religious exemption. That was irrelevant to the feds, however, who secured an 18-count indictment, and the top three people went to federal prison after pleading guilty.

Of course I am not equating Trinity with LaSalle's situation, only saying that a religious exemption says nothing about quality or usefulness of a degree. And, since you are enjoying the work, and not necessarily starting a new career, and have the funds to do this thing, there is probably no harm or danger here.

Of curiosity: Columbia Pacific University's attorney is named Grover, and also comes from Salem. Any connection?

 

this is a test

 

Incredibly to me its credible

Hi Howard:

Thanks for your good wishes. My program at T seems credible to me for four reasons:

1) Length of program. As I understand the UNISA site, Unisa might require of me 48 semester hours of coursework prerequisite than T is.

2)Rigor of coursework. T favorably compares with the Four RA schools in which I've done significant grad work. Each class takes me about 400 hrs to finish. I work in two foreign languages to complete some assignments. Once i Slouched on an assignment and was given an "F" for it and a "tongue lashing."

3)Qualifications of Faculty. So far my profs have had RA PhDs. The last was a former Dean at an RA seminary.

4) Productivity and successes of grads and recommendations from leaders in Evangelicalism. I will produce upon requests examples.

Thanks again for your good wishes,

 

UNISA

I'm sorry: (1) above should be T is requiring 48 more semester units than UNISA appears to require.

 

ODA Approved?

Hello Dr Bear:

Sorry for my inexact choice of words. Yes Trinity has religious exemption. How did it, a school not located in Oregon, acquire this? Is it just handed out to all who request it?

This seems not the case since it only followed an inspection of Trinity's materials etc by Alan Contreras. After this evaluation Contreras writes (2-27-01) Ed Martin, T's Dean, that since Trinity is no degree mill and its students do more than a modicum of work ,"Accordingly, degrees from Trinity may be used in Oregon (only in religious contexts) including teaching in ODA approved schools or accredited schools which are religious.

Again sorry for my inappropriate use of "approved."

Nope, no relation to that lawyer,

 

Re: Incredibly to me its credible

Is this a joke? Or is this simply incredible? Why don't you share a sample of your work here? Or send it to a RA Ph.D. faculty member for review? Seeming to be credible and actually being credible are often two different things.

 

let's see your work

Hi Engaged

What a foolish request to make to one with my backgroud.

My last paper was 61pp. It dealt with exegetical problems in the interpretation of Greek texts in the New Testament. Here's a line or two. Why don't you decipher the meaning.

"Most telling against Grudem's view is that in his dissertation he mixed into his study plural TSKS patterns and plural participial TSKS constructions." p42

Like it?

 

RA faculty

Hi again "ENGAGED"

Guess I'm not yet done with your reply:

I didn't realize that faculty were "regionally accredited"!

Or did you mean I should send some of my products to the faculty of an RA accredited school? Sure I would. I could send it to Drs De Young and Laney who were on my thesis committee at Western CB Seminary..it is RA (not sure the profs are tho ) I attended that RA school for four years and those good men know me well. In fact I sent the last Trinity paper to DeYoung as he and I disagreed mildly on similar issues. These profs A'd me on my thesis at Western.

Or did you mean too bad my Trinity profs don't have RA doc. But they do.

Or just what in the heck did you mean?

 

Re: let's see your work

Bill,

Respectfully, I do not know that what you posted below is making your point that Trinity is at RA doctoral level.

Regarding South African schools, I think the point the person mentioning this may have been making is that you can do an equivalent of an RA Ph.D for as little as under 2000 at UNIZUL (for example). It is a research doctorate so sans additional coursework. There are a number of very good quality programs with well known theology departments.

At any rate, you have made the choice which best suits your needs, so best of luck with your studies.

North

 

SA Schools

Hi North:

Thanks for your reply.

You are probably right in your appraisal of my arguments.

I'll spend more time on the South African sites.

 

Everybody seems to be writing "brick and mortor."

For the record, we Ph.D.s spell it "mortar."

Looking for a cheap gag, I did a Google search for "mortor," and there were 7,700 hits, 99% of them misspellings of either "mortar" or "motor" or even "Mordor." The 1% seemed to relate to some internet game characters with the surname "Mortor."

 

spelling and UNISA

Hi Dr Bear:

I think there may be some PhD's who don't spell well!

I just got off the UNISA site and it appears that with an accredited ThM I could obtain a DTh by only completing a dissertation. I really am giving that some serious thot (whoops there goes my bad spelling again).

Would you, and any of the knowledgeable here, be kind enough to share with this old man who wants to spend his remaining years in good study your opinion of UNISA?

I am now off to research it in your book too.

Many Thanks,