Biblical languages and educating pastors

How important to the practical education of a pastor are biblical languages?

How important to one's practice of ministry is it to have had biblical languages? Can one be a truly good pastor without having taken classes in Hebrew or Greek and doing the subsequent exegetical studies?

If a pastor's education is equivalent to the MDiv in all respects except that he/she has no biblical languages, will he or she still be effective? I mean truly effective? And if the answer is "no," what will he/she be missing or unable to do that other pastors can do and -- and this is important -- that will actually ever be needed in the real world?

Are there any major denominations that will permit an otherwise well-educated man or woman to become ordained without his or her having gone through the whole biblical languages thing?

Are there any MDiv programs that anyone is aware of out there that have no biblical languages requirement?

 

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I think you will find your mainline denominations will require you to have Biblical languages. It also depends upon what you want to do in terms of ministry.

 

Do you consider Unitarians to be a major denomination?

 

Study of the original languages will be of tremendous practical benefit. It is not necessary, but extremely helpful.

BLD

 

A quote from my theology prof in seminary seems prudent: "Studying Greek/Hebrew is like watching TV in color. While the show is the same in black/white, it's not nearly as interesting."

FWIW,
Steven King

 

You know the corny music from "Hall of the Mountain King" in Grieg's "Peer Gynt"?

bumpabumpabumpabump, bumpa bump, bumpa bump, bumpabumpabumpabumpabumpabumpa bee bumpabumpabumpabump, bumpa bump, bumpa bump, bumpabumpabumpabumpabumpabumpa beebumpabumpabumpabump, bumpa bump, bumpa bump, bumpabumpabumpabumpabumpabumpa bee bumpabumpabumpabump, bumpa bump, bumpa bump, bumpabumpabumpabumpabumpabumpa bee

I think I hear Bill Grover coming nearer.

 

An uninformed, but experienced, opinion...

In my humble opinion, I think the study of Biblical languages for an academic track/ministry/pastoral type of degree path is absolutely critical.

From personal experience, my own somewhat secular arguments have been demolished several times by members of this board who have command of Biblical languages as a basis for their information.

How else can the faith be adequately defended if one cannot even comprehend, translate, and integrate the original language/words into modern contexts?

I wish I knew more about this, but unfortunately one only has so much time in the day to become "educated", and my pursuit is not the ministry - alas.

 

1.) Very. I agree with the quote of watching TV in color rather than black and white.
2a.) See # 1.
2b.) Yes. Pastoring is much more than just interpretation of the Scriptures and preaching of the Scriptures. Most active pastors, I reckon, would say that this is only a small fraction of what they really doas a pastor. A priority, no doubt, but just a small fraction.
3.) Again I believe so. But we are talking in the realm of the pastorate, not in academia which are two totally and oftimes divergent fields. In academia it is absolutley essential, I think to have a good grasp of these things. In the Lower Cyprus Creek Church, membership 15 on Communion Sunday, I do not think they have a major issue with their pastors grasp, or lack thereof of Hebrew/Greek. (I speak as one who has pastored a very rural church in the deep backwoods of Virginia)
3b.) It usually depends on your location, educational level of those you pastor, your ability to connect with your peers and academics in your area. Those who serve/pastor in the urban, metropolitan areas are more than likely dealing with people who value this ability more than those say in some of the more remote and rural areas of the country. Will it ever be needed? One never knows.
4.) Yes. Baptist (especially Missionary Baptist) usually ordain one who is a.) Called to Pastor a churchor whose call to a church is resting soley on their lack of ordination, b.) Called to a particular position within their church that requires ordination...ie Yout Pastor, Minister of Christian Ed., Minister of Sick and Shut In Visitation, etc., c.) As a reward for time served in faithful service to one's pastor/church. Perhaps your larger MB churches (over 500 members) may place the M.Div degree demand on them, but for the most part, it is totally up to the local church and that pastor who they will ordain.
5.) I am quite sure Bill Grover knows as this is right up his alley.

 

Re: Re: Biblical languages and educating pastors

Not sure I understand the question in context to the intent of this thread, but most Unitarians, Catholics, and Jews are perhaps the best educated clergy in the nation.

Unitarian clergy who graduated from ATS seminaries are well-schooled in the Biblical languages.

In more than 20 year's in the ministry, most ATS graduates I have known forgot most of the Greek and Hebrew they learned and relied on language study aids for sermon prep.

BTW--------I AM FINISHED AT CCHS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Turned in my final project Tuesday!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Congrats Jimmy. BTW--even tho we disagree on some of what the original languages actually were --you and I as hick clergy I think disprove the notion that rural churches don't care about this stuff. My denomination is overwhelmingly rural. Hebrew and Greek are non-negotiables. Always have been, always will be. We waffle badly now on Latin and German, but many of us old farts are appalled by this development.

 

Thanks for the thoughtful and informative response. That's exactly the kind of commentary I was seeking (not that other comments herein weren't also what I was seeking... and am still).

I sure hope the reason he's not participating in this thread (so far) isn't because I'm it's starter and he's afraid we'll tangle over whether the thread will go off-topic. In another thread he thought I was singling him out when I made a general remark about how these threads sometimes stray so far off-topic that even the thread-starter loses interest, but I was not. I appreciate Bill's thoughts on these topics very much, and I wish he'd chime-in... even if, what the hell, it all ends-up a little off-topic sooner or later.

Your point being, I assume, that an MDiv from a Unitarian seminary would not include biblical languages, is that it? If so, good point... that is, if it's true that it doesn't.

Lemmee go look at one... stand by...

...okay I'm back. Unfortunately the page describing the MDiv at Starr King doesn't list (or have a link to) the precise coursework. But I just looked at every course the institution is offering for 2004-2005 and, indeed, there's not a biblical language course among 'em. Shall I take it from that that Unitarian MDivs typically don't include biblical languages? Jimmy Clifton's post, above, would seem to dispute that.

As for whether I consider Unitarians to be a major denomination, I'd say, yes, certainly. And certainly Berkeley's Graduate Theological Union would appear to think so, as well. Who am I to argue with them (not that I would want to regarding this issue, mind you).

By the way, while I have the floor for a sec, a point of clarification: I did not mean to imply by my having started this thread that I necessarily believe biblical languages are not important. I'm an ELCA Lutheran and for those of you who don't know what that means, trust me, Lutherans believe in the need for biblical languages! In fact, Martin Luther was unambiguous about his fervent belief in the need for them. In his "To the Councilmen of All Cities in Germany That They Establish and Maintain Christian Schools" in 1524, he wrote:

"And let us be sure of this: we will not long preserve the gospel without the languages. The languages are the sheath in which this sword of the Spirit is contained; they are the casket in which this jewel is enshrined; they are the vessel in which this wine is held; they are the larder in which this food is stored; and, as the gospel itself points out, they are the baskets in which are kept these loaves and fishes and fragments. If through our neglect we let the languages go (which God forbid!), we shall not only lose the gospel, but the time will come when we shall be unable either to speak or write a correct Latin or German. As proof and warning of this, let us take the deplorable and dreadful example of the universities and monasteries, in which men have not only unlearned the gospel, but have in addition so corrupted the Latin and German languages that the miserable folk have been fairly turned into beasts, unable to speak or write a correct German or Latin, and have well-nigh lost their natural reason to boot."

Boy, ol' Martin Luther sure knew how to pull his punches, didn't he? He so rarely said what he really meant! An activist after my own heart, he was -- or maybe it's that I'm one after his.

So, it appears, was Martin Luther, based on what I quoted above. Some things, I guess, never change -- even 500 hundred years later -- do they?

My point in starting the thread was that I just wanted to get a few opinions from people whose opinions I have come to respect (i.e., the folks around here) about how truly necessary it is now... today... in a truly practical way. I have an ordained friend (non-ELCA, I should probably point out) who is schooled in biblical languages and nevertheless believes it was pretty much a waste of his precious seminary time. He argues that he could take any four or five (intentionally) divergent English bible translations and compare them for a given verse, then supplement that understanding and interpretation by reading a bit of what others whose writings he respects have to say about it, and he can then pretty much get all the subtlety of meaning intended by the original Hebrew or Greek (as testament-appropriate) as would be needed to do his job (and do it well) in any typical parish setting; that, as a practical matter, his seminary hours of languages and associated exegesis would have been better spent on such things as additional urban ministry studies, or ecumenism, or fund raising or any of the areas that he now wishes he knew more about so he could help ensure the survial of this church; and that while he agrees with what Martin Luther wrote, things today are so different and the availability of thoughtful writings about the texts are so much more available today than they were in 1524 that spending a lot of time on biblical languages in seminary these days -- especially if one does not intend to teach and, instead, simply wants to be a really good preacher in a nice little church somewhere -- is just no longer necessary.

And I'm thinking he might be right.

There. If Bill doesn't see that as the functional equivalent of waiving a red flag in front of a bull, then I don't know how to drag him in here!

And where's Brad, on this one, too? I really enjoy his insights on these sorts of things... and he's certainly well-qualified to comment.

 

Re: Re: Re: Biblical languages and educating pastors

I was asking if Gregg DesElms considered Unitarians to still be a major denomination. Outside of Boston, I doubt very much if we still are.

As to language requirements, let’s look to the major UU theological schools: “The Unitarian Universalist Association is most closely related to two theological schools, Starr King School for the Ministry and Meadville/Lombard Theological School. In addition, the UUA maintains close ties with Harvard Divinity School which is non-denominational.” http://www.uua.org/programs/ministry/credentialing/preparation/requirements.html

Harvard Divinity School http://www.hds.harvard.edu/afa/mdiv.html first, if only because they have a clear statement on their language requirements for an MDiv.

In other words, modern Spanish is sufficient: no Biblical languages required.

Neither of the two denominational seminaries, Meadville/Lombard http://www.meadville.edu/ in Chicago and Starr King School for the Ministry http://www.sksm.edu/, in Berkeley have clear language requirements available online; judging from the explicit requirement for foreign language competency for an MA from Starr King and it’s absence for the MDiv, I shouldn’t be at all surprised if there was not a requirement for Biblical languages at least in the latter case.

 

Re: Re: Biblical languages and educating pastors

Looks as if we were at Starr King (or at least their website) simultaneously. Meadville -- where I once seriously considered attending -- doesn't offer biblical languages, either, although one could easily take them through their affiliation with the Association of Chicago Theological Schools.

I reckon we're more important historically and in terms of influence -- certainly not a "major denomination" in terms of actual numbers.

 

I truly think is a denominational thing. Different denominations require different things. As a whole, Baptists love their autonomy, even to the point they will call a minister with a different theological background simply because he looks good, or can sing, or is friendly, or has a nice family, or has a job so we won't have to pay him a lot. In my current and lifelong denomination, it is not a major issue...especially in rural churches. Their major concern is if the pastor is visiting the sick, or can get the copier to work so they will have programs this Sunday, or to retire the debt on the church. They ain't as worried about Hebrew and Greek intepretation when many are still struggling with the English version.

Not that I think that should be the position of clergy, mind you. Whether through seminary, or through self study, we should get a clue and a grip on the languages of the Bible.

 

What's a "pastor"? I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, my point is to ask what the scope of the question is.

Apart from Jews, non-Christian clergymen obviously have little use for Biblical languages. And some Christian denominations seem to place less emphasis on Biblical exegesis than do conservative Protestant evangelicals.

I would guess that the secondary literature is probably sufficient for most purposes. Obviously a scriptural theologian would need the languages, but I'm not exactly sure why an average clergyman would. Few that I've met have seemed very scholarly.

Success in that role may require a somewhat different skill-set. It may have more to do with public speaking, church management, counseling and a lot of empathy and common sense.

I don't think that the Catholics always require it, except from those specializing in scriptural studies.

Here's St. Patrick's Seminary in Menlo Park:

http://www.stpatricksseminary.org/formation-programs.htm

 

Thanks Uncle Janko. Yes, even rural churches have an interest in what the original words were. I am teaching a Bible class on Mark and bring in the Greek (and Aramaic ) words.

It's always been my experience that people in the rural churches are more interested in scholarship than those in the urban churches (except those on university and college campuses and in their vicinities) and are more willing to examine various viewpoints and perspectives.

I've also discovered most rural congregants have good libraries of Biblcal reference materials.

Interesting you mentioned German and Latin. I grew up speaking German but my folks stopped using it in the household because my relatives complained that's all I'd speak. Now I don't know it. Latin is a fun language I have studied for years.

I read the Vulgagate to keep up with it but am getting rusty. I think I am getting "oldtimer's" disease."

 

Re: Re: Biblical languages and educating pastors

Perhaps. I have the New Jerome Biblical Commentary by Raymond E. Brown, S.S; Joseph A. Fitzmyer, S.J.; and Roland E. Murphy, O. Carm., all Catholic scholars.

The book is replete with explanations of Aramaic, Hebrew, and Greek words. Fitzmyer is considered an Aramaic scholar.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Biblical languages and educating pastors

Thank you for that piece from the Harvard web site. In it I find a cogent statement of the direction in which it seems my beliefs on this issue are heading. Harvard, it appears, sees the study of Hebrew, Greek -- and, to some degree, I'm guessing, Latin -- as absolutely essential to the task of being a biblical scholar or biblical or seminary educator... a sentiment with which I wholeheartedly agree. Its willingness to accept French, German or Spanish would appear to suggest that Harvard believes, as I am starting to believe, that if one isn't a scholar or biblical or seminary educator then it might be better for one to know a modern language -- even if to the exclusion of biblical languages -- that would help him or her preach the Word to others... a sentiment with which I believe I am coming to wholeheartedly agree as well (that is, barring someone else making a posting here that effectively puts the brakes on my ultimately getting there).

There is an ELCA-approved MDiv program -- one that I've always really liked -- that seems to completely understand the Spanish-speaking imperative for precisely the reasons suggested by Harvard's statement. While it doesn't dispense with the biblical languages requirement (nor am I suggesting that it necessarily should... although I'll bet I could make good arguments why it shouldn't, too), it makes darned sure that its graduates are fluent in Spanish. I tell you, I love this program and its curriculum -- for that, and other reasons. Too bad it isn't D/L, eh? But I digress.

No smart-assness presumed. It's a perfectly valid question since many denominations don't use the term. By "pastor," I meant ordained, rostered clergy -- the Lutheran or Presbyterian (and many other denominations, too) equivalent of a Catholic or Episcopalian priest; someone who may administer the sacraments; the dude in the pulpit delivering the sermon; yadda, yadda, yadda.

Indeed!

It's tragic, I think, that that's so often true... at least in certain denominations. ELCA Lutherans (at least -- and certainly many other denominations, too) believe it's so important that their ministers be fairly "scholarly" (or at least know what the heck they're talking about, generally) that one cannot typically even contemplate ordination there until and unless he or she has gotten a pretty heavy-duty theological education from an ATS-accredited (and usually also regionally-accredited) seminary, said education including biblical languages.

Agreed, hence my growing belief that biblical languages, generally -- at least for a good number of MDiv seekers -- may, as I stated above that my ordained friend believes, in these modern times (as opposed to 1524 when Martin Luther espoused the necessity of it) be a waste of their valuable seminary credit (and study) hours. But I haven't come to that conclusion quite yet and am still seeking commentary here.

 

RE: Bill Grover

READERS: In fairness to Bill, see this thread -- or, at least as applies here, just the first posting therein. Thanks uncle janko.