Bashing the Non-RA's

One has to be careful when coming up with a criterion. For instance, let us suppose we were to use citation of one's work by scholars as an indicator of the value of the conferring institution.

I could come up with a list of doctorate holders (I won't name them here, of course, but you can probably come up with your very own list of 5 GAAP doctorate holders who fall into the same class), all holding doctorates from GAAP universities.

As a "control" I could then put my name in that list (I am an unaccredited degree holder), for comparison.

Only two of the members of that list would have citation in what might be considered GCSP* publications.

Can you guess who one of those two would be? Obviously, one of the cited would be me, or I wouldn't be offering this caveat as regards criterion, now, would I?

Anyway... just food for thought.

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Quinn

* GCSP: Generally Considered a Scholarly Publication.

 

Suppose someone earns a PhD from a state approved school - would you consider them a real "PhD". Just curious. Also, if they were a psychologist, licensed in the state of CA -would you address him/her as "Doctor?" Just trying to gather your ideas. Maybe Dr. Levicoff or Dr. Bear can chime in here?

 

My opinion is biased by the fact that I hold an unaccredited doctorate (and not from CA, what's more!), and so, there is very little value in how I would address anyone.

That said, if someone holds a legal doctorate, and wishes to be addressed as "Dr. Some-such" -- I will address them as such, without any regard for accreditation.

There is every reason to believe that you will never find anyone at DegreeInfo.com with an accredited degree who has made a public investment in the accreditation issue who would address me as "Dr. Jackson." Hell may freeze over, but even then, I doubt it strongly that it would ever happen. Moreover, I would not expect them to. It would be like asking Mullah Nasrudin to sit down to bacon and eggs, or green eggs and ham.




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Quinn

 

Thanks for the reply. For me, if you earned a state approved PhD, I would most certainly address you as "Dr" if the situation warrented. For me, the state approval of the degree has some merit. In fact, a psychologist here in Chicago I know holds a PhD from a state approved program that is NOT RA. Once again, thanks for that reply as I was just curious about peoples feelings here.

 

Well, it's a bit more complicated than that, in my case. In this case, "legal and valid degree" doesn't mean "approved" by the state. It means just that -- "legal and valid" and the state refrains from making any statement as to its worth or value.

This is all fine for me, for a number of reasons. It is very likely not appropriate for a very, very large number of people. If I explain the reasons it was appropriate for me, here on DegreeInfo.com, I may be doing a disservice to those who had really better only consider RA degrees if they're considering American schools. There's no need to confuse the issues with my very peculiar and specific circumstances, which very likely do not apply to most.

I've written a little piece on it. If you'd like to read it, feel free to request it via email. (I'd post a link, but it's a sample chapter for a book I'll be proposing, and there are copyright issues.)

If you (or anyone else)w ould like to read the chapter ("My Non-Accredited Degrees: What they Mean (And Don't Mean)"), you can find my email via the URL in my info, on the "Contact Quinn" bar.



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Quinn

 

I have a question- Why are posts that give praise to or report positive results from a California Approved school questioned. Why is it so hard to believe that a legal college degree would not help someone’s career?
I have seen on more then one occasion these posts refered to as lacking validity because the poster is “anonymous”. Aren’t all the posters anonymous? Do we really know who anyone is?
Why should I believe stories about non-RA degrees being judged as less than equal to any other degree? Who is posting this information? I don't know Rich Douglas, do you? (nothing personal)
This is just food for thought.

 

This is (or was) explored in another thread here: http://www.degreeinfo.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000105.html

I don't know Rich Douglas from Rich Little, or Kirk Douglas, or Adam. A quick peek into AED will show that he's been around almost since Adam, though. ;-)

I think the primary argument against taking an anonymous poster seriously is that the anonymous poster does not invest any credibility capital into their posts. The minimum investment required is a name.

I don't think Steve, or Rich, or just about anyone here would have any issue with an articulate non-RA degree holder coming here, expressing an opinion now and again, in a balanced, reasonable, non-defensive, non-evasive way. They're not going to put their stamp of approval on anything -- but they'll likely not go ballistic.

I do recall, however, one poster who some time ago who declared in no uncertain that the articulated, intellectual, balanced, reasonable non-accredited degree holder was, in fact, the worst form of scum on earth.

So, you can't please all the people all the time, but you can put your best foot forward, and if the foot is attached to a name, people will offer the benefit of the doubt and assume the name is attached to a flesh and blood person and not a Trollomatic 5000.

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Quinn

 

While it is true you don't know me or others, others do. Also, I've been very open about how to contact me, where I work, etc. Finally, you can find things I've written elsewhere. (I'm currently appearing at www.degree.net. Two shows nightly, three on the weekend. Tell your friends and try the veal....)

We tend to use not only our real names, but our real identities (which go far beyond a name.) John Bear is an author, I'm a corporate trainer, Chip White runs this board, Wes Cox just had a baby, Steve Levicoff is a truck driver, etc.

As for California-approved schools, there is ample evidence of their degrees' inferiority. Research has demonstrated a severe lack of acceptance of such degrees by regionally accredited schools. And while we've heard a great deal of anecdotal evidence about people using these degrees successfully in their careers, there has been no research to measure this. (For the record, many of us have heard many tales from people utterly dissatisfied with these degrees as well.)

There was a time when California exercised significant control over its approved schools. But then, it approved only a handful (compared to hundreds it authorized--but did not approve--to operate). When the state moved to approve them all--or shut them down--it didn't have the resources to do the job. Plus, the state shut down the agency doing this, creating the BPPVE under the Department of Consumer Affairs to handle the job. Under-staffed and -financed, it can do little more than handle consumer complaints. This has led to a lot of crappy schools staying in existence.

There was a time when California-approved schools that offered distance learning were but a few. (In fact, the state used to approve degree programs, not entire schools. Some schools were authorized to operate, but had one or more approved programs.) Also, it was the state's intent to consider state-approved programs legally equivalent to accredited ones. This didn't happen, but it gives you an idea of their desires regarding the importance and thoroughness of state approval. That, too, is gone.

Looking back at the early 1980's, you'd find schools with approved programs like California Pacific, California Coast, Columbia Pacific, and a few more (some of which have since gone on to regional accreditation). The bad schools were at the authorized level. When that was removed, some left for other states, others closed. Some stayed in California and got by the approval process. (Initially, at least. Some were later denied re-approval. Also, as I said earlier, the state government gutted the CPPVE and created the toothless BPPVE. That's why schools that survived the initial cut--like Pacific Western and Frederick Taylor--were able to "wait out" the state, and now operate in an almost-unregulated environment. (Certainly without the rigors that accredited schools face.)

Rich Douglas

 

I have a question- Why are posts that give praise to or report positive results from a California Approved school questioned. Why is it so hard to believe that a legal college degree would not help someone’s career?
[/B][/QUOTE]

It's not hard to believe, but the reports are often situation-unique to that one person. For example, if you obtain an unaccredited degree for salary enhancement and it's acceptable, you could probably file that as a success story. However, you better hope that:

- You stay with that specific company until retirement

- The people who approved the degree don't leave or retire before you

- The company stays in business until you retire

- You don't plan on using the degree as a teaching credential

Obtaining an RA degree would cover your butt if any of the above doesn't work out. An RA degree is a marketable commodity no matter where you go, an unaccredited degree imposes severe restrictions that aren't worth it, IMO.

As for the anonymnity of the people here, several of the regulars have in fact met each other face-to-face. I'm not one of them, but there's an open invitation to anyone who visits the Boston area.

I've said it more than once...the opinions and suggestions offered here should be a starting point to anyone contemplating non-traditional higher education. Take what you get here, then go do your own research. When all is said and done, it's not going to be me or any of the other poster here signing the tuition checks for anyone else.


Bruce

 

You mean there are schools that are not regionally accredited that produce attorneys who are allowed to practice law? What is the name of the school(s)?

 

"I have a question- Why are posts that give praise to or report positive results from a California Approved school questioned."

A great question Randall. Antidotal evidence is of little to no value for a number of reasons. The most important is the person presenting it often intentional or unintentional leaves out important points. On the Presidential Appointee example the fact that he had replaced the CCU degree with a Excelsior degree and had a stellar career was missing. In effect it is impossible to know if you are getting full information that would let you validate it.


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Best Regards,
Dave Hayden

 

It is difficult to miss the numerous threads on this board discussing the values and limitations of pursuing a JD degree from an unaccredited school. California has many, some residential and some DL. Other states have a few, all residential.

Rich Douglas

 

"What about a person who obtained a DETC degree (me).Does that make my degree "inferior" because many RA schools will not accept the degree? "

Yes. If an Academic Degree is unacceptable to the vast majority of Academic Institutions in a country I think it is fair to call it an inferior degree. I don't mean this as a slight to you or the hard work you may have put in. It always best to be direct and frank about these kinds of issues.



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Best Regards,
Dave Hayden

 

This is an interesting point. According to your logic this would mean that if someone holds an RA degree and employer is looking for someone with a credential from an exclusive IVY league school, the person with the non-ivy league (but RA) would have an inferior credential- perhpas.

I take no offense at you saying my DETC Masters Degree is inferior. That is your opinion and I respect it, however I just don't agree.

 

Actually, this does happen. I have an MBA from an RA school that is also AACSB accredited. I interviewed at a company which housed a great number of Hah-vahd MBAs and a number of Stanford MBAs. In one interview, the VP looked at my resume, then told me, "Oh- you have a working man's MBA."

So, in some minds, yes, I had an inferior degree- though it was RA and AACSB.

 

This whole subject of "bashing" nonregionally accredited degrees has been interesting. I must confess that some posters have been very dignified and systematic in their reasoning and their presentation. On the other hand, others have come across as arrogant, failing to give credence to any opinion but their own and any credential other than theirs. Now, I have never attended a DETC school. I am qualified to make a valid assessment as to the acceptability and/or utility of such degrees. As I've stated in another post, the consumer is really victim in this whole accreditation fiasco. After all, what would give the average consumer any pause about purusing a degree through a recognized accrediting agency such as the DETC? The consumer should be able to trust such recognized agencies to provide them with a generally acceptable education.

No one has provided information based on an empirical approach to demonstrate that DETC degrees are inherently inferior to regionally accredited degrees. The notion that RA schools' refusal to accept degrees from DETC schools constitutes inferiority is faulty reasoning. Such reasoning ignores the politics of accreditation. As I've stated before, a more object approach may be to conduct a study on whether or not the observable and objectively measurable elements for the two classes of degree holders (RA and DETC)are different. In other words, do RA score higher on accounting tests? Do DETC grads score better on secondary education tests? I would also suggest that there are so many variables (some which are not easily quantifiable) that such a study will be difficult to conduct.

To the poster who has completed a DETC graduate degree, I offer only the following advice: For whatever reasons (not necessarily because your education was of a pooer quality), your DETC degree may not open all the doors a regionally accredited degree will. As long as you understand the limitations and are willing to live with them, then by all means be proud of your accomplishment. I wish you the best.

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David F

 

Note: I intended to say I am NOT qualified to address the utility of DETC degrees because I have not conducted a study.



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David F

 

I am the individual who is the DETC Masters graduate - thank you for the compliment. In fact, my CCHS (DETC) degree has opened doors with Capella University for the PhD program. More important, I work with people living with diseases and the degree has opened new employment choices. More important however, the degree opened my mind to new information and learning. Isn't that what education is all about?