BA in 4 Weeks

Ulrich,

as you seem to be an expert with nostrification of foreign degrees in Europe, what about a DL degree I earn with a UK institution (for example Durham, Surrey, OUBS), would I also have to go through the nostrifiaction process or is that just for non-european degrees?

Thanks,

Michaela

 

Hi Ulrich,


quote: Originally posted by Lawrie Miller:
1)
So, are you saying, de facto, any regionally accredited degree will enjoy recognition in Europe, including the FRG? That is, for practical purposes, and where "recognition" is defined as real-world acceptance by state and industry employers and academic institutions (when used for the purposes of entry into higher degree programs), folks presenting US degrees will not have a problem?

Lawrie Miller continues:
No one is talking of automatic recognition, Ulrich. I went to the trouble of defining "recognition" for the purposes of the question because of the ambiguity in your original answer. As another poster has indicated, you appear to state your opinion with authority, yet when asked to cite your sources, you sigularly failed to do so.

Once again, excepting the Federal Republic of Germany, in which major European countries would U.S. regionally accredited degrees not enjoy recognition, where "recognition" is defined as: real-world acceptance by state and industry employers and academic institutions (when used for the purposes of entry into higher degree programs)?

To offer further help to you, let us restrict "major European countries", to France, Italy, United Kingdom, and Spain. These countries by population, excepting the FRG, represent the bulk of Western Europe. Please cite your sources where it relates to these nations, for your clear and unambiguous assertion that, "[a]ny regionally accredited degree will not enjoy recognition in Europe". If you are so certain, then presumably you will have no problem backing that certainty with evidence by way of citation and reference to original source materials. That way, no one need take only your word for it, but can satisfy themselves by doing the same research you presumably did to reach such certain conclusions. Vindication then Ulrich, is easily achieved by citing the source materials.

The web sites you referenced were of no use. Neither of the real sites contains verification of your information as it relates to European countries other than Germany. The third site you referenced, ULRIC http://www.itsajoke.ch, was of course completely irrelevant ULRIC (Ulrich) http://www.itsajoke (it's a joke).ch (Switzerland). Quite what the point of that was is beyond me. People are taking your words and advice seriously, Ulrich, and it would be helpful to treat their concerns with respect.

The one quote you offered in support of any of your assertions was a phrase without referenced context, allegedly from the University of Lausanne. A single school in Switzerland is hardly "Europe", Ulrich. And even here, the quote was a restricted reference, not to all US institutions, nor even to all US DL institutions, but to *some* US DL institutions as they relate to *one* university in *one* obscure little country in a peripheral and mountainous area on the edge of the mainstream of the European Union. Even in this restricted context, are you seriously saying that on the basis of this quote, one should say "[g]oodbye Excelsior and Phoenix"?

Your beliefs and assertions may prove valid, Ulrich, but so far you have provided no evidence of any kind whatsoever, as it relates to mainstream Europe, that you are correct. When asked to provide proof of your authoritative and certain posture, you didn't, or perhaps couldn't. I don't mean to be unkind, Ulrich, but isn't it time to walk the walk on this issue, and provide solid evidence? You must have referenced some source material to be so certain of what you say. What is the problem in identifying the specific material and specific texts that underpin your position? Cite your sources as they relate to the major countries listed, excepting the FRG, so we may all derive similar insight. The text or document(s) in question; specific quotes illustrative of, and or verifying your contentions. That sort of thing.

 

Specifically on the issue of the FRG, I emailed Peter Glaeser, a German law student *and* Excelsior College student, studying and living in Germany, to get his perspective (he seemed ideally placed to answer these questions of acceptance). Peter will be familiar to many of you from his AED contributions. As it happens, he is currently in the U.S. partying and taking RCE exams for his Excelsior College degree, but did read his forwarded mail and his reply to this thread is quoted below.

Incidentally, on the issue of passing exams without study, Peter at age 20 earned 24 semester hours credit from Regents for the Political Science GRE subject exam. This exam is, of course in English, and focuses largely on the U.S. political system. Peter did no studying, walked in, wrote the exam, and fell only 6 credits short of the maximum (the then) Regents College awards. He then did exactly the same thing in the GRE Mathematics subject exam. I asked him why he did not study at least a little, and earn 30 credits, "Because I only needed 24", he replied.

***************************************************************

Hi Lawrie,

<SNIP personal stuff>

I don't have my password for DegreeInfo with me, so I can't post right now. But that's alright. You can use my information and say you got it from the German guy going for an Excelsior degree right now. You can just copy and paste, if you want. Unfortunately I can't come up with the legal sources since I left all my stuff at home.

In Germany, you need to have the permission of the federal state of your residence to use an academic title earned outside Germany. That is a federal regulation. You cannot just use for example Peter Glaeser, M.A. This is unlawful, and a federal crime.

A board of experts will evaluate the coursework and compare it to programs taught at German universities. If they find that structure and content of the degree program are close to what is typical for a German degree, they decide to allow you to use the degree. But, in most federal states, you will be required to identify the country where you earned the degree. For example: Peter Glaeser, M.A. (USA).

An interesting question is whether undergraduate degrees from TESC, COSC and Excelsior will be accepted. The issue here is not so much the fact that these degrees are earned by distance. Distance education is growing in Germany too. And universities start offering Bachelor programs too. It's just that certain ways of nontraditional learning are not accepted in Germany yet.
The best examples are portfolios and GRE scores. They are major sources of credit in the mentioned programs, but German schools do not grant credit for taking just one multiple-choice test, and they are unfamiliar with the portfolio system. So there is no general rule. It pretty much depends on the individual transcript. For example, I earned 24 credits by taking the GRE Political Science exam. I don't think that they let me get away with this since the American standardized exams are not generally accepted. So, I will most likely not be able to use my Excelsior degree as an academic title. But that's alright since I am probably going to a traditional university in England next year for graduate study.

Ulrich, I am sorry, but I really doubt that a degree from a public university is required. I don't think an M.A. or Ph.D. from Harvard would be rejected (even though it is a private school). The issue here, at least for Germany, is not public vs. private. The question is if the degree program and the way credit was earned resemble German university programs. For graduate programs, a thesis is required.

One major problem of not getting a U.S. DL degree recognized in Germany appears when you want to work in the public administration. They have weird and stubborn regulations. For example, you even have a hard time with a Masters degree from Cambridge/England. A major issue is also the acceptance of Bachelor degrees. They are almost unknown in the private sector. I would even argue, having a Masters degree from a U.S. DL school is better than having a Bachelor from a German university. But that's just my opinion.

Have a great week, Lawrie. You're welcome to ask me questions while I am here. I won't be checking DegreeInfo until March 19.

Have a good one,
Peter

 

Lawrie,

thanks for all your effort in finding out how things work in FRG.
So, as a general rule, I would say, best is to contact the local state authorities to make sure what someone should be aware of before leading a title. Speaking for myself, I am not so much interested in leading a title but to have it accepted by the employers and they probably have anyway all their own different perspectives.

Thanks again,

Michaela

 

Lawrie,

Il est très tard et j'avoue avoir un peu de difficultés avec l'anglais. Je vous prie donc de bien vouloir me pardonner si je recours à ma langue maternelle.
Vos affirmations m'ont un peu surpris. Je ne suis pas un expert et je n'ai jamais affirmé que j'en étais un. Par contre, en ce qui concerne la fameuse question de la reconnaissance des titres et diplômes délivrés à l'étranger, je crois avoir acquis une certaine expérience. Elles se limite à cinq pays que je connais fort bien : la France, l'Italie, l 'Allemagne, l'Autriche et la Suisse.


Peter Glaesr a écrit : Ulrich, I am sorry, but I really doubt that a degree from a public university is required. I don't think an M.A. or Ph.D. from Harvard would be rejected (even though it is a private school)

Harvard rejected ? ? ?
Je n'ai jamais affirmé cela. L'Université de Lausanne écrit : Seuls sont reconnus les programmes universitaires comparables à ceux existant en Suisse, et suivis, sauf exception, auprès d'universités publiques.
Et j'ai écrit : They (l'Université de Lausanne) require a degree from a public university (a public funded institution). There are exceptions but exceptional exceptions. Goodbye Excelsior and Phoenix.

A ce propos, Trigger (Heriot-Watt Slashes MBA Tuition by $1,530) écrit : according to what people at my regional Kultusministerium told me) there will be just MBA degrees (don´t know about undergraduates, but I guess the rules are pretty much the same) accepted that come from AACSB-accredited Universities PLUS "known" Universities, that is to say the "big" ones and the State Universities.

Je confirme ce qu'écrit Trigger et ce n'est pas une particularité allemande.


Lawrie Miller wrote : When asked to provide proof of your authoritative and certain posture, you didn't, or perhaps couldn't.

Vous avez tout-à-fait raison, Lawrie. I cannot.
J'ai réuni un grand nombre d'informations, a fortiori les sources, traitant de ce sujet, mais je ne prépare pas un travail de séminaire, je ne publie pas un artricle scientifique, vous n'êtes mon directeur de thèse et surtout je n'ai pas tant de temps à perdre. Croyez-moi, cela m'indiffère de savoir si mes propos vous ont convaincu ou non.

Je présente mes excuses les plus sincères à ceux qui ont été offensés par ce que j'ai écrit. Qu'ils ne le soient pas, d'après M. Miller, mes propos sont sans fondement aucun.

Je suis très occupé, Lawrie, et je ne souhaite pas poursuivre cette discussion stérile avec vous. The conversation is closed.

E la nave và ! Un pò stanchina.

Ulrich Bozzo.

 

Hi Ulrich,

I think your English is just fine, Ulrich. I see no need at this point to resort to French. This is pretty much an English language site, and your written English language skills are more that adequate. The less charitable might consider this a ploy to obfuscate and divert.

I do think you came across as authoritative. I do not doubt your experience. What I've asked for is corroboration in the way of citation.

I'm not asking you to employ the rigor required for publication, just cite the sources that corroborate your statements. It isn't about convincing me, but about public verification of your contentious information.

It's not clear to me why you find it offensive that I ask you cite your sources.

But apparently you were not too busy to make the unsubstantiated claims in the first place. Now that you've been rumbled, you're out of here.

Duh, what?

So, it appears Ulrich cannot offer any corroboration of any kind whatsoever for his claims as they relate to the wider European Union. Perhaps when he's less "busy".

 

Le CEFI : association qui réunit en son sein une représentation du monde des ingénieurs (CNISF,Conseil National des Ingénieurs et Scientifiques de France) du monde professionnel au travers des grandes fédérations (UIMM, UIC, Syntec ingénierie), de Chambres de Commerce et de Grandes entreprises ainsi que des écoles.
Les principales Administrations concernées - Éducation Nationale, Industrie, Agriculture, Affaires étrangères -, ainsi que des représentants des établissements de formation et d'organismes variés, sont associés à un Comité des programmes qui prend connaissance des activités et des études en cours, et participe à leur développement ou à leur promotion.

The CEFI writers :
Étudier à l'étranger: quand et où ?

LA RECONNAISSANCE EN FRANCE DU DIPLOME ETRANGER N'EST PAS ACQUISE.

LE CAS TYPE EST CELUI DU BACHELOR QUI N'EST RECONNU NI PAR LES ETABLISSEMENTS DE FORMATION, NI PAR LES ENTREPRISES.
La reconnaissance se fait au niveau Master Il faut admettre qu'un français allant aux États-Unis au niveau du College ne bénéficiera pas d'une côte d'amour particulière, s'il ne revient qu'avec un Bsc. Dans ces conditions, la solution la plus réaliste est de limiter ses ambitions à la préparation d'un Msc, ce qui se fait couramment dans les écoles françaises en remplacement de la dernière année. 


This morning I called the CIMEA - Fondazione Rui in Rome and the Bureau DRIC du Ministère de l'Education nationale, de la recherche et de la technologie in Paris.

Is Mr Miller's Bachelor of Art recognized in France and in Italy ?

Do your work, Lawrie.
CIMEA 39/6/86.32.12.81
DRIC 33/1/55.55.04.21
Be clear with them. Nontraditional, credits by examination, no thesis,...
Call them. You will not spend much money. Their answers are rather short. Only their insignificant opinions.

Ulrich

 

I don't understand you, Lawrie. You are sometimes a nice man.
But you want to kill the messenger because you dislike the message.
I don't decide, Lawrie. The foreign degrees are evaluated by a commission of officers and university professors. These persons are rather conservative. An euphemism.
I content myself with informing people from some countries; unquestionably there are recognition problems. They should seek advice, before they embark on a curriculum from Excelsior for example.
I have respect for you and I respect your degrees. Et oui. C'est bizarre, hein ?

Best regards.

Ulrich

 

So does this mean that private U.S. schools, such as Harvard, are not recognized??

John

 

I wanted to add, in a previous thread I posted the question about whether USNY degees would be accepted. When Excelsior was USNY it was a state run program. However, I believe that the answer from Ulrich was No it still was not acceptable because of the type of program USNY provided.

What I can tell from the current state of affairs in Germany is that it is confusing. If someone earns a DL degree from a major university in the U.S. there really isn't any way for Germany to know that it was a DL program or not. External, DL, or other learning methods are typically not represented on the diploma or transcript. In essence, Germany needs to get caught up with the times in evaluating and understanding foreign credentials in the 21st century. It would seem to be an easy solution relating to the U.S. and that would be to accept all RA prgrams.

John

 

Hi Ulrich,

You've given us nothing here. Specific quotes where it relates to US degree recognition as defined in the earlier posts, is what we need. You seem to be thrashing back and forth trying to find some out of context examples that may have some application to the points at hand. I'm sorry, Ulrich but none of this mish-mash is very helpful. Don't take it personally, but do cite the original sources that will corroborate your contention that, "Any regionally accredited degree will not enjoy recognition in Europe."

The one quote you give from the Center for World Engineers (?), talks *in general* about the need for a U.S master's degree rather than a bachelor's degree. This is a point I've written about in AED at great length, where I've argued that a UK bachelor's degree is at the level of a US master's degree. The point there and in your quoted example is about relative level of study, and the minimum expected by this particular association. It talks about formal recognition *begining* at the master's level. As far as I read it, it simply states that consideration for formal recognition of a degree does not occur at the bachelor's level but at the master's level, and that French students studying abroad should set their goals accordingly if they want formal recognition by this association. That's not unusual, and I'm sure you'd find similar thresholds of acceptance in professional associations in this country.

You called these organizations, CIMEA and DRIC? Well, Ulrich, what did they say? You don't tell us. Did you speak to them? Did you tell them that Mr. Miller has a U.S. regionally accredited Business degree and a Liberal Arts degree, has the legal right to work in Italy/France, and wants to know:

1)
How would employers and grad schools view such degrees?

2)
Would the degrees being earned non traditionally present a problem?

3)
Would the degree being earned by way of standardized examination be a problem?

4)
For any and all of the above, how much of an impediment would those problems, where they exist, be?

Perhaps the answer would be, "It depends." Depends upon the type of employment sought, whether professional recognition is required or not, local employment professional licensing provisions, etc. All problems someone with a foreign degree in the United States would encounter. No great practical difference.

That is, there will be problems utilizing a foreign degree in many countries, and yet foreigners abroad do seem to find employment and acceptance in their field. Clearly, where professional licensing is required, one would have to meet those requirements. That is as true for Europeans working in the America as it would be for Americans working in Europe. That is a far cry from your contention of an almost complete ban on the use of a U.S. degree in the wider European Union**.

**Ulrich wrote in an earlier post: "Any regionally accredited degree will not enjoy recognition in Europe."

 

Which makes absolutely no sense, since regional accreditation is the highest standard of recognition available in the U.S. (I think the problem here may very well be that Ulrich isn't aware of that fact).


Peace,

------------------

Tom Head
co-author, Get Your IT Degree and Get Ahead (Osborne/McGraw-Hill)

 

Hi Ulrich,


Well, again, don't take it personally. Had you actually been saying, as you contend here, that,

"I content myself with informing people from some countries; unquestionably there are recognition problems. They should seek advice, before they embark on a curriculum from Excelsior for example."

there would have been no argument at all. I think the above is likely an accurate assessment and the advice, sound.

However, that is not what you have been saying. You said:

"Any regionally accredited degree will not enjoy recognition in Europe."

AND on private distance learning institutions,

"There are exceptions but exceptional exceptions. Goodbye Excelsior and Phoenix. From this point of view the "privatization" of Regents (Excelsior) is a mistake."

This statement, seems to have been based solely on a quote relating to the alleged policy at one particular Swiss university, and not specifically related to degrees from U.S. institutions, nor indeed, related to any homogeneous policy in the European Union related to the acceptance or otherwise of degrees from U.S. DL institutions or anywhere else. Yet you conclude, "[g]oodbye Excelsior and Phoenix."


If it is the case that you *now* wish to amend your position to that detailed at the top of this post, then simply say so. You have my encouragement and my full support.

 

Oh, come on Lawrie, you're taking what Ulrich said out of context. It was a reply to your questiuon about whether all RA degrees will automatically be accepted. You wrote

to which Ulrich replied

Perhaps poorly worded, but reasonably clear.


Now I'll say something contraversial: Everyone talks about how RA is the "gold standard" and how no-one will question your degree if it comes from an RA school. It isn't true. RA only means minimally acceptable. There are plenty of RA schools whose degrees I don't think very highly of. The Europeans are right in this regard. The US is a mess of great, good, bad, and mediocre schools, and if they want to differentiate between those degrees, good for them.

As for regents, the degree by taking subject GRES (which are much too easy BTW) is the equivalent of many RA degrees, but lets not kid ourselves--it isn't a Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Columbia, Chicago, or Berkeley degree (or a UCLA or CMU degree for that matter). While someone who just graduated from Harvard can go of to study at a top US or European program, I doubt a Regents grad is going to get in without significant extras (and the same for the graduate of most other RA colleges).

 

Whoops -- I hadn't checked this myself. Next time, I should actually read a guy's post before arguing with it, huh?


Peace,

------------------

Tom Head
co-author, Get Your IT Degree and Get Ahead (Osborne/McGraw-Hill)

 

Lawrie, your intellectual dishonesty is boundless.

1)
I wrote : With respect to the problem of recognition of foreign (non EU) degrees, Germany is not a special case in Europe.

2)
I wrote : The recognition of a university degree and the use of an academic title are two different things.

3)
I wrote : There is no automatic recognition of regionally accredited degrees in Europe

4)
You asked : What about the special case of distance learning degrees ?
I answered : They are often not recognized. Things are changing. Slowly, but they are changing. Nowadays if the curriculum is very well structured, it's not easy but not impossible.
The University of Lausanne (Switzerland) writes : a ) distance education programmes are not recognized. b) they only recognize university programmes comparable to Swiss programmes. With a few exceptions, these programmes musst be from public universities.
I wrote : they (the University of Lausanne) require a degree from a public university (a public funded institution). There are exceptions but exceptional exceptions. Goodbye Excelsior and Phoenix. From this point of view the "privatization" of Regents (Excelsior) is a mistake.
Dr John Wetsch wrote : so does this mean that private U.S. schools, such as Harvard, are not recognized ??
My answer : Is it really necessary to answer this question. Did I assert that Harvard is not recognized.
English is my fourth language. I do what I can. Mr Miller takes advantage of this weakness. It's indignant.

5)
L Miller asked : what about the DL degree earned entirely by way of proficiency examinations?
I answered : There are three obstacles
a)
The nontraditional nature of the school
b)
The U.S. nationally standardized testing systems (AP, CLEP, etc.) aren't inevitably well known in Europe. That's why their interpretation can be difficult.
c)
The sacrosant structure of a university degree.
During the final two years at an American university, studies have to represent greater specialization as well as an introduction to research and analysis of complex problems.

6)
I wrote : I can only advise a European student to collect information.
I gave two important addresses
NARIC The Network of National Academic Recognition Information
ENIC The European Network of Information Centers
They are able to answer these questions.

7)
I wrote : If you were not able to get recognition of your US (DL or traditional) degree the problems are multiple. No access to a higher degree, restricted unemployement benefits, no professional recognition, no job in government organizations, etc.

8)
I called the CIMEA - Fondazione Rui in Rome and the Bureau DRIC du Ministère de l'Education nationale, de la recherche et de la technologie in Paris.
CIMEA 39/6/86.32.12.81
DRIC 33/1/55.55.04.21
What about a nontraditional US degree (Bachelor) earned with credits by examination and no thesis ? Their answers were rather short. Only their insignificant opinions.
And don't ask me, Lawrie. Call them. But I don't know if they have the sources.
L Miller asked : Did you speak to them?
No I called them and I instantly put down. My English is probably ridiculous, but I speak French and I am an Italian citizen who lives in German Switzerland. It helps. A little.

Please Lawrie, continue misleadind the readers of DegreeInfo.

I wrote : I have respect for you and I respect your degrees.
But I scorn your intellectual dishonesty hidden under your self-styled scientific rigor.

Ulrich

 

Lawrie Miller askerd : So, are you saying, de facto, any regionally accredited degree will enjoy recognition in Europe, including the FRG?

I answered : Any regionally accredited degree will not enjoy recognition in Europe. There is no automatic recognition.

I guess I made a mistake. I wanted to say that a regionally accredited degree is not automaticaly recognized in Europe.

I'm trying to understand my mistake. Without success. Can you help me Tom or ?
Any regionally accredited degree will not enjoy recognition in Europe. What does it mean ?

Thank you.

Ulrich

 

It can mean the same as "no regionally accredited degree will enjoy recognition in Europe" (every RA degree will be unrecognized). It's actually a bit ambiguous depending on the reading of "any" as "all" or as "some"

-me

 

No, you come on, Gerstl. No one asked Ulrich about automatic acceptance. You say I quoted him out of context and to offer proof, you quote me out of context. See later for a full accounting. I asked about de facto recognition, Gerstl. What does that have to do with automatic acceptance? I then went on to define "recognition" (which you deleted):

Lawrie Miller wrote:
"and where "recognition" is defined as real-world acceptance by state and industry employers and academic institutions (when used for the purposes of entry into higher degree programs)"

"De facto" does not mean or equal "automatic", now does it?

As for YOUR "controversial" statements. With all the will in the world, I hardly think you're living on the edge. What you say seems to me self evident. I think few would argue with you. I doubt your words will generate any great angst amongst the assembled cognoscenti. Who were you thinking of that would hold a Regents degree has the same utility as a Harvard degree? I've never read that argument from anyone in the years I've subscribed to AED (may be I missed it), and I'm certainly not arguing that now as it relates to acceptance in Europe. You seem to be stating the obvious. Who has argued with that position? I'll ask you that which I ask of myself or anyone else: cite the source. No one is kidding themselves about the utility of an RA DL degree, Gerstl. No one is making claims of equivalence of utility school to school. Everyone has acknowledged the likelihood that some RA degrees will not be accepted in some situations some of the time. Only one person has argued that one RA degrees will find virtually zero acceptance most of the time (and that was the argument though it's now the subject of a vigorous backpedal). All that has been asked is that specific texts, documents, that support that position be produced. That is not unreasonable.

When people say a regionally accredited degree will not be questioned, I take that to refer to it's basic legitimacy as a true and honest credential, and not a fraud. In addition, it *is* often the case that regional accreditation *is* the official standard in employment and graduate school programs, which triggers acceptance OFFICIALLY. I spent some time on this issue and produced several examples and references some time back in a series of AED posts, in debates with Neil Hynd, I believe. These related to RA acceptance in the US and in the UK (which incidentally is part of the European Union and directly relevant to the discussion at hand).

And there *is* a context in which regional accreditation is *most definitely* the gold standard in the U.S. That is in relation to other accrediting organizations of U.S. higher education institutions. And that is where the term GOLD STANDARD is most often applied. May be you were taking such quotes "out of context".

Is it also true that it can be viewed as a *minimum* standard of "goodness"? Sure. I know of no one who would dispute that. And if we isolated US regional accreditation and examine schools holding that accreditation, we will find a range of disparate quality. Of course. Who, who, has argued otherwise?


Here's the original exchange with Ulrich.

Originally posted by Lawrie Miller:
1)
So, are you saying, de facto, any regionally accredited degree will enjoy recognition in Europe, including the FRG? That is, for practical purposes, and where "recognition" is defined as real-world acceptance by state and industry employers and academic institutions (when used for the purposes of entry into higher degree programs), folks presenting US degrees will not have a problem?
[/B]

Ulrich Bozzo replied:
No, I am not. Any regionally accredited degree will not enjoy recognition in Europe. There is no automatic recognition. In some countries, like Germany, in order to use a foreign academic title, you are forced to have your degree recognized. The procedure
is almost always the same. Your degree will be evaluated by an ad hoc commission. In some of these countries it is possible to use the
national academic title of the host country on basis of an academic degree earned abroad. It's the nostrification. In the others it is not possible to validate an academic title. These countries recognize the diploma and degree earned without conferring to a national title. There are also countries that tolerate the use of a foreign academic title, even if your degree is not recognized. They don't care because it's not a national title. Lawfully these foreign titles don't exist.

Lawrie Miller continues:
No one is talking of automatic recognition, Ulrich. I went to the trouble of defining "recognition" for the purposes of the question because of the ambiguity in your original answer. As another poster has indicated, you appear to state your opinion with authority, yet when asked to cite your sources, you singularly failed to do so.

Once again, excepting the Federal Republic of Germany, in which major European countries would U.S. regionally accredited degrees not
enjoy recognition, where "recognition" is defined as: real-world acceptance by state and industry employers and academic institutions (when used for the purposes of entry into higher degree programs)?

To offer further help to you, let us restrict "major European countries", to France, Italy, United Kingdom, and Spain. These countries by
population, excepting the FRG, represent the bulk of Western Europe. Please cite your sources where it relates to these nations, for your clear and unambiguous assertion that, "[a]ny regionally accredited degree will not enjoy recognition in Europe". If you are so certain, then presumably you will have no problem backing that certainty with evidence by way of citation and reference to original source materials. That way, no one need take only your word for it, but can satisfy themselves by doing the same research you presumably did to reach such certain conclusions. Vindication then Ulrich, is easily achieved by citing the source materials.

..................................................

So, Gerstl, I don't think I quoted Ulrich out of context at all, though you certainly did a hatchet job on my reply to try to make that stick.

But let us stop the sniping. The key point is can Ulrich substantiate his claims or not? That would include the latest one of calling organizations in France an Germany and asking them questions apparently related to my position as a USNY/Regents/Excelsior graduate. I've asked him to quote their reply, he refuses to do so. I've asked him to cite his sources he used to arrive at his position, he has not done so. What he has given us has been general references to organizations. Nothing at all specific that backs his position.


Ulrich Bozzo wrote:
This morning I called the CIMEA - Fondazione Rui in Rome and the Bureau DRIC du Ministère de l'Education nationale, de la recherche et de la
technologie in Paris.

Is Mr Miller's Bachelor of Art recognized in France and in Italy ?

Do your work, Lawrie.
CIMEA 39/6/86.32.12.81
DRIC 33/1/55.55.04.21
Be clear with them. Nontraditional, credits by examination, no thesis,...
Call them. You will not spend much money. Their answers are rather short. Only their insignificant opinions.
Ulrich


......................................

 

Yes, yes, Ulrich, you did write this and you did write the quotes I attributed to you, too. You've been all over the map on the issue that it's getting so we can pick and choose your quotes and produce diametrically opposed positions.

No doubt I'm a thoroughly bad man, dishonest, and hell, I should be hung, but Ulrich, what does this have to do with asking that you provide proof to corroborate your assertions? You *still* have not done so. Will you?