Louisiana Baptist University

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Guest, Jan 27, 2002.

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  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    The website is: www.lbu.edu

    While not RA, under the section "Academic Recognition," the school details information about the regimen of its programs.

    Does anyone have any knowledge of, or information on, LBU?

    Russell
     
  2. Jonathan Liu

    Jonathan Liu Member

    LBU, before it began to use its current name, was once a candidate for an US DOE recognized accreditation. But it didn't make it for some reason. Steve Levicoff knows a lot about it.

    ------------------
    Jonathan Liu
    http://www.geocities.com/liu_jonathan/distance.html
     
  3. CLSeibel

    CLSeibel Member

    Isn't this the former Baptist University of America? If I'm correct in saying this, in its earlier days, this institution had a number of very credible faculty involved with it. In addition, some of its undergraduate degree recipients went on to earn advanced degrees from ATS institutions. At least a couple are teaching in accredited institutions around the US.

    I can't say much of anything about this institution in its present manifestation. From my snooping around the accredited academic community, I've gained the impression that LBU does not enjoy any level of acceptance to speak of.
     
  4. CLSeibel

    CLSeibel Member

    My bad--LBU was originally Baptist Christian University, not Baptist University of America. Sorry about the confusion.
     
  5. Craig Hargis

    Craig Hargis Member

    I graduated from the seminary division (Th.D.) last year. In general, my experience with LBU was very good. Because I have secular graduate degrees (UC and CSU) I was not really worried about accreditation per se, as long as the school was academically credible. It is. I was actually a little surprised at how much work was involved. While there was not as much reading as you might encounter in an RA graduate program (usually less than 800 pages) it did require a good deal of writing (often more than fifty pages). I studied English at UCR so the classes were a little less sophisticated in terms of theoretical perspective and critical issues than I was used to, but I would have to say that they were strong in substance and challenging in their own way. I truly learned a lot, and I was not a biblical illiterate when I started. The mentors were pretty impressive, most seemed to have virtually memorized the KJV Bible, and were strong in reformed theology, original languages, and very strong too in practical theology. They run a required in person exit seminar that is quite good. All in all, I would say the classes were comparable to upper division or perhaps M.A. classes at an RA residential school. They made me take sixty units of course work, so it is no "four course wonder" degree. The school was pretty demanding in terms of the dissertation too--not as much as UCR, but harder than you might expect.
    You have to understand that LBU is very much a niche school, catering mostly to pastors of fundamental Baptist churches and workers in private Christian (usually Baptist)schhols, Sunday schools, and so forth. The school is a part of the Baptist Bible Fellowship and its degrees are well recieved in those circles. They have some pretty impressive alumni, including a number of Christian writers and media people who might profit from having a good legal and credible doctoral credential. Most of the students have at least one RA degree, and a Bible school degree, so they are generally looking to consolidate experience and credits and get another graduate degree. If you teach exclussively in private schools, though there are some LBU people working in public schools or even colleges, or are a church worker or if you move in Baptist circles, LBU is probably a viable consideration.
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Craig,

    Welcome to DegreeInfo and thanks for your input. Several questions/comments if I may:

    1. How do you plan to utilize the LBU Th.D., and what prior regionally accredited degrees do you hold?

    2. As you state, LBU has some rather well-known (at least in LBU's context) alumni. Mal Couch has a Th.D. from LBU (he holds the Th.M. from Dallas TS), and has written several theological volumes. He is also president of Tyndale Seminary in Dallas/Ft. Worth. Thomas Ice earned the LBU doctorate (he also has other RA degrees) and has written extensively on the subject of biblical prophecy.

    Their program does seem substantive, and while not regionally accredited (which will limit the utility of the degree), I don't think the school is a degree mill.

    Blessings,
    Russell
     
  7. Craig Hargis

    Craig Hargis Member

    Thanks Russell:

    My academic interest was in the English literature of the late middle ages and in the radical reformation. My original doctoral work (1986-91)was at UC Riverside, and my MA (1986) and BA (1984)are from CSULA. I am a high school teacher by profession. Anyway, because I had no formal education in the theology of the radical reformation (except some Bible classs)I sort of wanted to do some work in that area. I certainly did not want to spend a great deal of money--thus LBU. I worked with Fred Moody, Mal Couch, and James Combs--all of whom were outstanding mentors. Tommy Ice did study there. Tim Lahaye and Grant Jeffrey and quite a few people of that ilk have LBU degrees. In its own fairly small world of fundamental, independent Baptist scholarship, LBU has some important names associatd with it. The President of the school, Neal Weaver, by the way, is as nice a man as you will ever meet. I became really interested in dispensationalism, and LBU proved to have quite strong resources; if you want to study dispensational/ prophetic theology on a budget, LBU is your answer. I wanted the degree mainly for publishing purposes--or possibly teaching in a Bible school.

    God Bless,
    Craig
     
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Interesting, Craig. When you speak of original doctoral work, did you complete the UCR doctorate? If so, was it a Ph.D. or Ed.D.?

    What was the subject matter of your Th.D. dissertation?

    Russell
     
  9. barryfoster

    barryfoster New Member

    Hi Craig,

    Re: inference of rigor

    I am assuming that when you talk about reading 800 pages and writing 50 pages that you are referring to a single course.

    In my RA Ph.D. program, this extremely small amount of work would not have covered one third of a single knowledge area.

    You mention the qualifications of your mentors. As a doctoral graduate, do you now have on par skills yourself? If not, you have not been mentored, but taught rote knowledge.

    How do you feel about holding a Th.D. while feeling that your work was at the M.A. level? You note that you were looking for something that was "academically credible"? From you own statements, I question your belief that the Th.D. you earned was credible.

    I'm not meaning to bust your chops with these questions and comments. However, just because a religious community accepts the degree doesn't mean anything. It seems that numerous groups within the religious community are naive re: rigourous education. It also seems that many take advantage of this lack of knowledge.

    What do you think?
     
  10. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Hi, Barry. I'm not Craig, but since I find this subject interesting, I'm going to respond to it, using your remarks to Craig as a framework.

    The numbers seem to compare well with what is expected in typical RA graduate courses. Depends on how many credits the course carries, I guess. I realize that quantitative measures don't directly measure quality, but it's certainly relevant.

    Isn't that an awfully strict criterion? Is it ever really met in practice? If one's professors are authorities in their subjects, wasn't a lot of that expertise developed over a lifetime of research and writing?

    If I had attended Cal Tech and the late Richard Feynman was my dissertation advisor, would I have to be the equivalent of a Nobel prize winner on graduation, or else my education was just rote?

    This is the crux of the matter, I think.

    I have no problem at all with non-accredited schools offering graduate education and research opportunities. In fact I applaud it. But I'm less thrilled with them offering degrees.

    A non-accredited degree will not be equally recognized, that's a given. The educational program that leads to it may involve substandard work either in quantity or quality. That depends. Without accreditation, all those judgements seem to be apocryphal.

    Since a degree implies that a public standard has been met, a public standard must exist. That's a tautology. It's also accreditation.

    In some cases it can mean everything.

    Or that they define it differently.

    Perhaps a religious degree program is interested in producing scholar-practitioners. Dharma Realm is a CA-approved school associated with a Buddhist monastery. The standard expected of Buddhist monks is different than that expected of graduate students at UC Berkeley. But does that make them any less knowledgeable about Buddhism?

    Hsi Lai is a CA-approved school whose administrators include a former Sri Lankan ambassador to the United State, and whose adjunct faculty includes a former chairman of UC Berkeley's Buddhist studies program, the current chairman of Whittier College's philosophy department, assorted authors and Ph.D.s from places like Yale, Chicago, Trinity College Dublin, Claremont Graduate University and so on.

    Compare that to Rice University in Houston, a "top tier" "national doctoral" university. Rice has a Ph.D. program in religious studies, but almost all of its graduate courses concern the Judeo-Christian tradition. While you can delve deeply into the Hebrew prophets or the writings of Paul, there is little or nothing on Buddhism.

    Which would be a better program for a Buddhist graduate student? The answer isn't obvious, since it would depend on why he or she wants to do graduate work. One would definitely provide a better work credential, the other a better education in Buddhism. Those of us more interested in the subject than in the credential might opt for the non-accredited school.

    My point in this post is to argue that the choice can be rational. Personally, schools like this are very attractive to me. I would have no problem in saying that I had done "additional graduate work" at one of them. But I probably wouldn't stress the degree in most cases.
     
  11. Craig Hargis

    Craig Hargis Member

    Wow! You guys are kind of testy. I simply meant to answer a question about LBU--The school is very credible in the context of the niche it addresses, and generally credible by any standard. As Bill suggests, how are we going to define education? If education is the study of the Bible from a pretribulational, premillennial, dispensational perspective, or if education concerns itself with church and Christian school administration, then Louisiana Baptist is possibly the school of choice. If education is the promulgation of evolutionary sadomasochistic studies in the neo-humanist perspective..well, there are other, highly accredited places. Just kidding...Actually what I said was, (and I stand by it)that if you move in independent, fundamental Baptist circles, LBU would be a very good choice. The degree has proven more than useful for a lot of people. Though to many it would not come as a ringing endorsement, I put LBU on a par with BJU (Bob Jones) and Pensacola Christian, schools that I respect (in a strange way).
    Barry: Certainly you are not suggesting that regional accreditation assures academic excellence in every program and in every graduate? Accreditation is a useful measure, perhaps, but I think the real test of a school is the performance of its graduates. Here LBU actually looks pretty good. For a school of its size to boast three best-selling authors and many other visibly published graduates is something that would usually indicate "credibility." But perhaps that is just my thinking. Certainly if an unaccredited school were to become accredited, it would not suddenly improve. Clearly departmental programs (not the university itself) at Harvard which are famously unaccredited are still quite impressive.

    Oh, Russell... I am ABD at UCR, all but doctor, I measn dissertation. I had 192 qtr units beyond the MA with a 3.8 GPA. I passed all three qualifiers and all language requirements. I taught there for six years. I did find (with the dawn of the uniquely UC brand of PCness) that I lost interest in the dissertation and drifted into an interest in theology. I may finish it, but I doubt it.
    My MA is in English. My dissertation, had I finished it, was titled "Neglected Space: Censorship, Secularism, and the Dawn of Reformation in English Literature, 1400-1550"
    My LBU dissertation (in two vols!) is titled: "Dispensational Theology: A Contemporary Assessment of Louis Sperry Chafer's Systematics"
    Barry... I agree with most of what you say, especially about the value of a religious degree in a denominational context. Rather we like it or not, LBU is the only doctoral level seminary operated by the 4,5oo church Baptist Bible Fellowship. It is also the only really viable choice for continuing education for the hundreds of BBFI missionaries in some 53 countries. By the way, the BBF is slowly getting all its schools accredited--BBC is an RA cand. BBC East is with Tracs. ACBBC is looking at the Bible college agency (I forget the name, ABC?). I would imagine in two years LBU will apply for and get Tracs. In my heart of hearts I do not believe that Bible schools need accreditation, I even wonder if it leads ultimately to compromise. Well, anyway, thanks everybody and God Bless...

    Late, Craig
     
  12. barryfoster

    barryfoster New Member

    Hi Bill: For some reason, I couldn't get this software to copy a lot of your comments, so I had to cut and paste ...

    You noted:

    Bill:
    "The numbers seem to compare well with what is expected in typical RA graduate courses. Depends on how many credits the course carries, I guess. I realize that quantitative measures don't directly measure quality, but it's certainly relevant. "

    Barry:
    Perhaps at the Masters level, but *my* doctoral experience was that this number would be awfully low. For example, instead of counting pages, my fellow students and I used to count books and articles. Instead of counting pages written, we'd count the number of revisions to a particular paper. (tongue in cheek). Page counting was important at the BA or maybe even a little in the Masters level, but not the doctoral.

    Plus, what about practice? Doctoral level learning is pathetic and weak without work in the field. Reading and writing about something is a *far* cry from the getting dirt under your fingernails in the real world.

    Bill:
    "Isn't that an awfully strict criterion? Is it ever really met in practice? If one's professors are authorities in their subjects, wasn't a lot of that expertise developed over a lifetime of research and writing?"

    Barry:
    I never said equal skills. I said on par skills, which I consider quite a difference. Doctoral credentials is *supposed* to mean that *you* are among the world's elite re: your particular dissertation question. I knew that I had reached that point when I exceeded my particular subject that my mentors. And I was forced to demonstrate that in order to graduate.

    Bill:
    "I have no problem at all with non-accredited schools offering graduate education and research opportunities. In fact I applaud it. But I'm less thrilled with them offering degrees."

    Barry:
    Completely agree.

    Bill:
    "My point in this post is to argue that the choice can be rational. Personally, schools like this are very attractive to me. I would have no problem in saying that I had done "additional graduate work" at one of them. But I probably wouldn't stress the degree in most cases."

    Barry:
    Again, complete agreement. Except I wouldn't even enroll. I could do the same without a formal program.

    So ... If learning is the real objective, and the school is questionable - why do people pursue degrees?
     
  13. barryfoster

    barryfoster New Member

    Wow! You guys are kind of testy.

    Hi Craig. I'm sorry you took my post as testy. It wasn't meant to be that. I felt that we were expressing our opinions.


    Actually what I said was, (and I stand by it)that if you move in independent, fundamental Baptist circles, LBU would be a very good choice. The degree has proven more than useful for a lot of people.


    Barry:
    Craig, why is having a title (Dr., Th.D.) important? By your own admission, the school doesn't operate at doctoral level work.


    Certainly you are not suggesting that regional accreditation assures academic excellence in every program and in every graduate? Accreditation is a useful measure, perhaps, but I think the real test of a school is the performance of its graduates. Here LBU actually looks pretty good. For a school of its size to boast three best-selling authors and many other visibly published graduates is something that would usually indicate "credibility." But perhaps that is just my thinking. Certainly if an unaccredited school were to become accredited, it would not suddenly improve. Clearly departmental programs (not the university itself) at Harvard which are famously unaccredited are still quite impressive.


    Barry:
    First, no I'm not suggesting RA = automatic academic excellence. However, it sure puts the school's feet to the fire re: quality and standards. Second, a lot of folks have been world-class standard bearers in their field without any education at all. Does this mean that no education is 'the path'? Should they be called Dr.? Third re: Harvard, you've confused RA with professional accreditation.

    Oh, Russell... I am ABD at UCR, all but doctor, I measn dissertation. I had 192 qtr units beyond the MA with a 3.8 GPA.

    Barry:
    Too bad you didn't finish. In my experience, the dissertation was the most important element of doctoral-level education - by far. ABD means that a person did some post-grad work. That's all.


    I agree with most of what you say, especially about the value of a religious degree in a denominational context. Rather we like it or not, LBU is the only doctoral level seminary operated by the 4,5oo church Baptist Bible Fellowship. It is also the only really viable choice for continuing education for the hundreds of BBFI missionaries in some 53 countries. By the way, the BBF is slowly getting all its schools accredited--BBC is an RA cand. BBC East is with Tracs. ACBBC is looking at the Bible college agency (I forget the name, ABC?). I would imagine in two years LBU will apply for and get Tracs. In my heart of hearts I do not believe that Bible schools need accreditation, I even wonder if it leads ultimately to compromise. Well, anyway, thanks everybody and God Bless..

    Barry:
    I'm not arguing that religious schools need accreditation. I am arguing that using degree titles that match degree titles - even though the program obviously lacks rigor - is a deceptive practice.

    I understand the Bible Baptist Fellowship all too well and am happy to hear that they might be making some progress. I also am keenly aware of the serious problem of fluffing educational credentials among leaders, pastors, etc. As well in my observation, the naitivity of the entire community re: what is and what is not an accredited / on par degree is high.

    So here's the crux of the matter:

    Claiming 'on par' degree titles - when it seems they are not - in a community that doesn't really understand the issues: Is that ethical? If not, is there a voice from within the community that is starting to call leaders to account?

    Craig, please don't take my comments wrong - I'm not 'blasting' you at all. You seem most sincere, educated and quite intelligent - which I greatly admire. Truly, I'm most interested in your thoughts on the subject.
     
  14. Craig Hargis

    Craig Hargis Member

    Barry: Thanks, and I don't take you wrong; you sound like a nice guy with strong convictions about education. The best part is that you found a great deal of satisfaction in your Ph.D. program. (May I ask in what, where, and when?) There was a song a few years back with the line "the things that pass for knowlege, I don't understand." You obviously have far greater respect for RA doctoral programs (actually I was only in one, so I should stipulate UCR) than I do. As for academic level, I characterized the program even then as "Hey, let's do the MA over again, twice." I was, take it all in all, disappointed in the "rigor" of the program. There was a certain level of theoretical sophistry (I mean sophistication)that you might not find in a seminary. But I tried to indicate that what it lacked in "theory" LBU made up for in substance. Now if one does not consider the Bible and Bible doctrine to be subsatantial in character, then one obviously will consider the kind of thing done at UCR to be more rigourous. There really is an issue here that Bill raised that you have not addressed concerning how we define education. At any rate, the work load in a doctoral program varies tremendously, depending on the discipline, depending on the school,the dissertation director, and most importantly on the orientation--professional or research--of the doctorate. If the dissertation is the critical thing and course work constitutes "only some" (in my case five years of full time study) graduate work, then what do you make of the DBA, MD, JD, DC, DMIN, and EDD degrees, many of which never require a dissertation or even a "capstone" project? If ABD is nothing why do many schools now award the C.Phil degree, or the Ed.S.? If accreditation is so much a guarantor of quality, why can any graduate student tell stories of people who passed their exams or dissertation through the exercise of certain social skills rather than intellect. (I am thinking of a woman who got a UCR Ph.D. with a less than 100 page dissertation--even though we are not into page counting, that sounds pretty hard to explain.) What about the many programs that require only a dissertation? Are they rigorous? If the dissertation is the big issue, then I think my dissertation at LBU, more than justifies the degree. It is a good, I think fairly original, substantial work that I would put against any dissertation I have seen. Again, I am not really denegrating UCR, it is a good graduate school, and I learned a lot there. But I cannot honestly say that--though it was different--I learned less at LBU. By the way, I did not confuse professional with regional accreditation, but if accreditation (like APA) is so important, why wouldn't Harvard obtain it? I think you are forgetting that accreditation is a voluntary procedure. When a school has been visited and reviewed by numerous educational administrators, and by members of the state board of regents, when it is approved by denominational authorities, when it has a disproportionate number of very well known and respected people for a school its size, When its graduates, who have proven track records in completing good RA programs earnestly tell you the school is generally equivalent to RA institutions, when it is approved by the state to grant degrees, and then someone says the degree is not credible, it sounds simply ridiculous. LBU is agood school, particularly in its clearly stated context; if one does not like it, then don't go there. As for schools like LBU, Midwestern Baptist, Hyles-Anderson, BJU, Pen. Christian, Landmark Baptist, and Bethany, I like them. You don't have to, But I have seen and heard things at RA schools that I couldn't believe. Does that mean RA schools are bad? As for schools like UCR, LSU, CSULA, and other RA schools I know, I like them too. They simply address a different perspective on learning.
     
  15. Craig Hargis

    Craig Hargis Member

    I'm sorry. I forgot to sign off on my note.

    God Bless us everyone!

    Craig (Th.D.)
     
  16. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Craig,

    Would you mind to e-mail me regarding your experience at LBU?

    Thanks,

    Russell
    [email protected]
     
  17. barryfoster

    barryfoster New Member

    Hi Craig. I disagree that our issue is over a definition of education. I have no doubt that people are learning. I recognize the emphasis / differences of a seminary as well.

    My main issue has to do with the actual credential of Th.D.:

    (a) By your account, you feel the Doctor of Theology work was at the Masters level.

    (b) Why then is it labeled a doctorate?

    (c) Is calling the degree a doctorate - when you feel it falls into the Masters level - an appropriately ethical respresentation of the credential?

    (d) Do you feel that the average church member understands the difference between your credential and a similar Th.D. credential from an ATS / RA seminary?

    Plus, I'd be interested in reading your own observations about fluffed educational credentials within your particular religious community. Perhaps you haven't seen any?

    Thanks again.

    BTW: I spent about 14 years in the business and witnessed much more than I care to remember.
     
  18. barryfoster

    barryfoster New Member

    Sorry Craig, I forgot to answer this question:

    BA in Bible and Theology, Southeastern College, Lakeland, FL - 1994

    MBA, Managerial Leadership specialty - City University, Renton, WA - 1996

    MA in Org. Dev. - Fielding Institute, Santa Barbara, CA - 1998

    Ph.D. in HOS - Fielding Institute - 2000
     
  19. Craig Hargis

    Craig Hargis Member

    Barry: You have impressive credentials, to be sure, especially you BA. You keep talking about the MA thing: What I said was, concerning the courses, was that, in reference to an RA resedential degree as a kind of standard, they fell around the upper division to MA range; this would specifically refer (comparatively) to a major in English. In both my MA and Ph.D work I took some UD classes. I took several proseminars, which were masters level at UCR. I never saw a real difference between the MA and Ph.D. level seminars except that normally the doctoral seminars were more focused. Just like you, in the course of my education I have taken classes at every level that were rather difficult, and classes that were amounted very nearly to nothing. Frankly, among secular subjects I thought English was very substantial. I took seminars in education, and anthropology, and considered them almost useless. By your own standards the dissertation and "field work" (though I am not sure what that would be in either English or systemtic theology) is the heart of the doctoral program; here I made clear the work at LBU was quite demanding (though I admit UCR tended to put people a little more through the ringer). You did not respond to my observation about the wide range of difficulty one might find in RA doctoral programs. While the LBU degree may not be as rigorous as a degree in physics, or even English, it is, taken as a whole, clearly on the doctoral level. To answer you directly, Do I feel comfortable with the degree title? Well, With 192 units beyond the MA at UCR, with an earned MA, with 24 units of graduate anthro, with 10 years of teaching experience at three four year schools, with 14 years teaching experience at JCs, with a California single subject credential, with minesterial credentials, with 30 other grad units, and with 75 units at LBU and a very substantive dissertation, I do feel very comfortable.
    I would like to continue this discussion but in more general terms--that is talking about people other than myself (please)and schools other than LBU. One school I really like is Landmark Baptist College in Hines City Fla. I almost went there. I don't mind also talking about accreditation in general terms; obviously you consider it a panacea. I wonder why so many division one athletes can't graduate? I wonder why so many graduates of our education departments can't seem to teach? Some of this probably sounds a little sharper than I intended.

    Late, and God Bless

    PS You are right--lots of folks in religious circles seem to have pretty inflated credentials. That is sad in more ways than one. CKH
     
  20. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    It's always fascinated me that so many degree mills and regular old crappy schools have claimed to be religious, or hid behind a religious exemption.


    Bruce
     

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