Why a PhD? (Or Any Other Degree)

The main problem with using the IPEDS undergraduate completion rates are that schools are only allowed to count student enrolled full-time and who have not attended any other college or university. For the University of Phoenix, this means that 93% of its students are not included in the IPEDS data above. While I am no particular fan of Phoenix, data for only 7% of students is hardly an accurate representation. Unfortunately, these are the only data that we have, since Phoenix's self-reported rate of 59% is based on what its President called in one article, "non standard calculations that do not allow for comparisons with other universities."

I would not be surprised to learn of low completion rates from Phoenix's doctoral (D.M.) degree. It would be interesting to see how the other "big three" in this area (Capella, Northcentral & Walden).

 

I agree that it would be an interesting study, but this is your hypothesis, not mine. You have said that the data should be available--you collect it and verify your hypothesis. I am busy working on a book and three journal articles on different DL topics.

You claim that RA online doctoral programs have a 10% or less graduation rate. You refuse to back up your opinion with anything but your "estimation," which does not appear to be based on anything but you opinion. So your opinion is informed by your estimation, which is informed by your opinion.

You have accused others of a lack of ethics and intent to commit fraud by providing inaccurate information. If, after this exchange, you continue to spout the 10% or less figure without offering any verification of your statement, then your accusations of others would be the height of irony.

In a few years, I will be happy to report on the graduation rates of our 11 Ph.D. students (they are doing pretty well during their first quarter of studies).

 

College Navigator reports that UoP Online Campus has an undergraduate enrollment of 314,309 students as of Fall 2009. It seems unlikely that this figure omits 93% of their students (because in that case, there would be some 4.5 million undergraduates in the UoP Online Campus, more than the entire population of Oregon or Louisiana).

College Navigator also reports that 14,576 bachelor's degrees were awarded by UoP Online Campus in 2008-09. Again, it seems unlikely that this number omits 93% of their students (because in that case, UoP would be cranking out more than 200,000 bachelor's degrees annually)

But 14,576 bachelor's degrees awarded is a very small number, in comparison to 314,309 students enrolled. There is a gaping discrepancy here.

For comparison, the College Navigator numbers for Berkeley and UCLA show that these two schools together produced 14,469 bachelor's degrees, which is nearly the same as the reported production of UoP Online. But Berkeley and UCLA together only enrolled 52,217 undergraduates, compared to 314,309 (six times higher) at UoP Online. The difference can only be explained by assuming that (1) undergraduates at UoP Online take much longer to complete their studies, or (2) that many of them never finish, or (3) that both of these things are true.

 

Do not forget the significant number of students who start at UOP and then transfer elsewhere for a multitude of reasons.

 

Your post makes my point about the limitations of the IPEDS data (which is the source for College Navigator). The 314,309 was the total undergraduate enrollment, but the graduation rate of 4%, according to Phoenix, was based on data from only 3% of the 314,309, (less than 10,000 students) since they are not allowed to report data from students who transferred to Phoenix from another school. Apparently very few students enroll in Phoenix's online campus as their first college experience.

I agree with you--given the number of students, Phoenix should have a higher graduation rate. I wouldn't necessarily expect Phoenix to be able to compete with UC Berkeley & UCLA graduation rates (given the different caliber of students and a higher percentage of full-time UC students able to dedicate the bulk of their time to studies), but the rates should be higher than they are. I would guess that your #3 reason above is most likely correct.

 

These changes (again) have many Northcentral students in an uproar:

http://www.ncu.edu/public_images/Northcentral_LearnerLetter_120210.pdf

I tried to warn my cousin about attend NCU.

 

What specific individuals or schools did I accuse?

Yes, at least 90% of RA Online Doctoral Students don't graduate, ever. And, yes, you can quote me on that figure. You are welcome to prove me wrong by graduating all 11 of your doctoral students...

Are you now seeing the paradoxical trap of being in a helping profession and supposedly adhering to a code of ethics, yet, at the same time, engaging in the fraudulent business activity of accepting far more doctoral students than ever can be trained?

 

You have accused all RA DL doctoral programs, without any evidence to support your accusations.

Your statement is not based on anything resembling reality. That you continue your assertions, while ignoring multiple requests to back them up just means that, despite my efforts to find any reason to take you seriously, being taken seriously is obviously not a goal of yours. I will be happy to quote you when you provide data to back up your fantasies. Yes, we plan to graduate all 11 of our Ph.D. students.

Are you now seeing the paradoxical trap of making silly statements with no evidence and then somehow believing that repeating the statements multiple times will somehow make them true?

 

The tone of my last thread was uncalled for. Since this "thread within a thread" is not providing any new information or insights, I will move on to more fruitful discussions. When either Dave or I have some data about graduate rates of online DL programs that can further this discussion, perhaps it can be resurrected.

As it stands, I only have rentention and attrition data for selected face-to-face doctoral programs (about 1 in 2 of those admitted to doctoral programs finish their degree). Neither Dave nor I have data on rentention and attrition of DL doctoral programs, so any claims of a 1 out of 10 graduate rate for DL (or a 1 of 2 for that matter) have no basis in fact.

Dave, I have been listening, so I am making sure that the Ph.D. program at my institution does not engage in the kinds of acts that you have decried. As part of our Anti-ABD strategy, our Ph.D. students will begin actively working on their dissertation planning (with advisement by their instructors and committee members) throughout their second year of coursework. By the time they finish their coursework and comprehensive exams, the first three chapters of their dissertations will be done and they will be ready to hit the ground running with their data collection. I have seen too many students who have taken their courses and exams and then were "cut loose" and struggled to figure out what to do for their dissertations. These are definitely "at risk" for ABD status.

So at least you can rest easy about one of those dreaded DL doctoral programs

Now, onward to more fruitful discussions...

 

Hi Steve, you almost sound condescending or even snarky for a moment... Is that intentional? Surely, someone who has been burned by a couple of "doctoral programs" has reflected on those experiences.

 

Interesting point... That has been the traditional view, that the very high (at least 90%) student kill rate in RA Online Doctoral Programs is some sort of measure of quality. Several years ago, I used to think that, too, until the pattern of massive student intake and extremely low graduation rates (i.e., approx. 10% according to my estimate) emerged over the last few years.

 

That's great. Just remember that 11 people so far have put their careers and retirements in your hands.