What is more work? A regular MD or the complete path to a PhD?

Well, I guess that settles it!

 

The U.S. Department of Education website (referenced below)includes the following about the MD, JD, DVM, PharmD, DDS, MDiv, OD, DPM & DO:

The link reference above contains information on the first professional doctorates,


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In case any is confused (or cares):

The MDiv (Master of Divinity), the standard pastoral qualification, listed possibly confusingly with doctorates in that reference , requires by ATS standards 90+ semester units beyond a BA , three years or more of grad study, including in most evangelical schools two languages , still, it is not a doctorate. The DMin. a professional ministerial doctorate, requires 30+ units beyond the MDiv.

 

Well, I called my FIL this morning. Here is the scenerio. You need to have a 4 year degree to start medical school (graduate level degree). You can get in with a pre-med bachelor's degree, but some get in with other degrees (BS Chemistry, Business, etc.), and have to take a few prereqs.

Medical school is 3-4 years, depending on ow many classes you take, and availability of classes.

Next is residency. It is the killer part. Your residency can be 1 or 2 years, depending on logged hours. (12 hours shifts usually).

Finally, after all of that, you take all of this to the board to take your medical board exames (like the bar). This is how you get thte license to practice.

It is intensive work 4 - 6 years (I mean FULL time), and the boards, which are difficult as well.

 

OK, but an MD is still not a graduate degree and at the same level as a PhD.

 

Keep telling yourself that ...

In the United States of America (the greatest country on earth), Medical and Law school applicants are almost always required to possess regionally or nationally accredited undergraduate degrees.

 

I wouldn't care to argue the semantics of whether MDs, JDs, etc. are technically graduate degrees or not. In the U.S., these degrees are treated by universities as "doctorates", equivalent to the Ph.D. I do not know personally of any instance where a college faculty member with a J.D. or M.D. is paid less than a Ph.D. or is not allowed to be referred to as "Doctor ___".

Yes, JDs, MDs, DDS, DVM, etc. are not research doctorates, like the Ph.D. or Ed.D., but they fulfill the entrance requirements for "doctoral degree" for college/university teaching or administrative positions. I would expect that this is true for business/industry and other sectors as well.

Tony Pina
Faculty, Cal State U. San Bernardino

 

Same in Canada, an MD or DDS qualifies you to teach at the university level. If it was considered an undergraduate, it wouldn't be a valid credetial for this type of appointment. I know of one MD and one DDS that work in academia and did not complete a PhD.

 

I stand corrected, I had lunch today with my FIL and he did 4 years of residency full time, mostly 6 days week, 12 hours shifts each day.

I agree, they are not the same, they are not in the same league, a medical doctor is much higher in rank, authority, responsibility, etc.

The sheer time is about double, and the responbilities are not in comparision after entering industry.

 

I was referring to the classification of the degree itself. An MD degree is an UNDERGRADUATE professional degree, this is a plain fact. I believe that some English-speaking universities still offer a Bachelor of Medicine degree (MB) as the standard medical qualification. These people still call themselves Medical Doctors based on their professional qualifications and membership in medical societies that grant that title.

An MD program is as tough as nails, HOWEVER, MD's are not researchers or scientists like PhD graduates. A PhD is trained to seek and generate new knowledge and push the envelope of science... I'm sure that some MD's do that too but not as a primary focus. Certainly my family doctor is no researcher, but he can sure treat my cold!

An MD is a taught degree with some research focus, whereas a PhD is a research degree with some taught elements. The two are a completely different animals with different purposes. An MD is more like an engineering degree than it is like a PhD.

 

Actually, you go into residency after getting your MD degree.

The medical residence is homologous to the post-doctoral work that PHDs have to do in order to get into a teaching-research career.

Luis

 

You must ave aa 4 year undergraduate degree to get into medical school, why would a undergrad degree require another undergrad degree?

It is silly to argue about it, as you seem to think you are basing this on fact, as I am as well. I think anybody in the US knows this simple fact.

 

As I said above, "next is residency", after the degree. Re-read the post, this is exactly what I said.

 

I trying clarify your post, because it seems to use the residency period as a piece of data to consider when comparing PHDs and MDs.

You were right.

Another issue is the classification of degrees, it is clear that in the US a medical degree is obtained at a graduate school after 4 years of post graduate study.

But since not all the people here are from our country, we have to say that there are many countries where you choose your field of education right after high school, then you go to Medical school for 6 or 7 years. (or to Engineering School, Law School, Science School, etc)

The degree you obtain is then a first professional degree.

If you come to the USA, you are eligible to take the Board Exam (UMSLE see: http://www.usmle.org/default.asp) and upon passing it you are consider to be an MD.

"A physician whose basic medical degree or qualification was conferred by a medical school outside the United States and Canada may be eligible for certification by the ECFMG if the medical school and graduation year are listed in the International Medical Education Directory (IMED) of the Foundation for Advancement of International Medical Education and Research (FAIMER®). "

Thank you,

Luis

 

Degree Ranking in the USA:

School leaving and higher education credentials:
High School Diploma
Associate Degree
Bachelor's Degree
Diploma
Certificate
First Professional Degree <---what we're talking about.
Post-Bachelor's Diploma
Master's Degree
Certificate of Advanced Study
Education Specialist
Doctorate


Seems in the USA the MD/JD etc. is technically between a Bachelor and a Master's degree. In the USA definately a post bachelor's designation.

"Students are only admitted to first professional degree programmes after completing most, or all, of a Bachelor's degree programme in another subject. The study content of the first professional degree programmes is undergraduate in nature and the degrees are prerequisites for entry-level access to certain regulated professions. Confusion sometimes arises because several first professional degrees use the term 'doctor' in the title even though they are not advanced research degrees. First professional degrees are awarded in Medicine (MD), Dentistry (DDS/DMD), Veterinary Medicine (DVM), Osteopathic Medicine (DO), Optometry (OD), Podiatry (DPM), Chiropractic (DC), Pharmacy (D.Pharm), Divinity (M.Div), Rabbinics (MHL/Rav), and Law (JD). "


Source: UNESCO IAU
http://www.unesco.org/iau/cd-data/us.rtf

 

OK, there is a great deal of techinical detail on which degree is cosidered a higher standard. I guess this technical debate can go on for a while, but to go back to the original posting, does anybody think that a PhD in Business, Art, Philosophy, (i.e. soft sciences), is MORE WORK than a MD?

 

I don't think a PhD in itself is more work than an MD, however, if someone is pursuing a PhD in Electrical Engineering it is normally assumed that the person holds a BEng and MEng in Electrical Engineering to enter the PhD in Electrical Engineering.

So... if you combine the work required.... BEng + MEng + PhD, then, absolutely, a person with a doctorate in engineering has definately put in more work than a person who holds an MD, hands down since this requires over 7 years of coursework, not to mention the BEng project, MEng and PhD theses!

 

Scott, My question specifically asked about the soft sciences, (since I think we agree on the hard sciences), what do you think about the soft sciences?

 

Mr. Henley may not live in the USA or be familiar with the US medical training regimen, but just about any physician trained in the USA has easily more than the 7 years of work Mr. Henley cites above.

Bachelor's: 4 years
Medical school: 4 years
Residency: 3-5 years depending on specialty
Fellowship: 1-3 years depending on specialty (if one chooses to pursue a fellowship)

There are a few exceptions to this typical progression, primarily in a few schools that offer a combined BS\MD program, but this is the way it works for the majority of medical schools in the USA.

One can also perhaps argue over whether residency and fellowship constitutes graduate level training, but clearly, when one looks at the number of years before the final credential is earned and the student enters the workforce, I suspect the typical US-trained physician puts in more time than does the typical US-trained PhD in the hard or soft sciences. There will always be individual exceptions, depending on how long the doctorate student took to select a topic, etc., but I believe my opinion is largely accurate.

 

Michael Loyd wrote:

Med school is more intensive, compressed yet not as long as regular doctorate programs (PhD) excluding the supervision requirements for licensure.


I agree with another poster that the hardest part of med school is actually getting in.

-S

 

When you are dealing with people on the verge of dying in front of you on a table, then yes, I agree that the responsibility is much greater and your status higher. But nurses, for example, do a lot of work too, in fact almost as much if not more work than MDs (they do a lot of the dirty work that MDs don't want to do), and in many cases they carry almost as much responsibility. Yet their status is nowhere near that of MDs and much less of PhDs.

On a different note, miners, well, work up to 16 hours a day in some developing countries. We can say that their work is, well, more work than that of PhDs or MDs, and much, much less rewarding.



As for medical degrees, you get to see some ARNP, PhD and MD, PhDs. Apparently their ranking goes higher with the PhD behind their medical degrees.

-S