What is more work? A regular MD or the complete path to a PhD?

I frequently read that MDs think PhDs are not real doctors, but is an MD really more work than a BS, plus Masters, plus PhD? If so, how much?

Thanks for any inputs

 

I am not a physician, but as a malpractice risk manager, have worked with them for about twenty years so far. In terms of sheer hours worked during training, not to mention responsibility for human lives, I think that medicine has other doctoral-level professions beat all hollow.

When you consider that after graduating from medical school (4 years post bachelor's), most physicians have four to eight full time years of a residency and\or fellowship to put in before entering the workforce, you are talking eight to twelve years of graduate-level training. I suspect the typical Ph.D requirements are much less.

 

The academic requirements for an MD degree (4 years undergrad + 4 years MD coursework) are less than for a typical PhD (4 years undergrad + 2 years masters + 3-4 years PhD coursework + 1-3 years dissertation). However, when you factor in the post-coursework professional requirements (residency + internship), the MD is, in my opinion, more difficult and certainly more costly.

Of course you are talking about a professional program versus a research program, so it may be an apples and oranges kind of thing.

Tony Pina
Faculty, Cal State U. San Bernardino

 

I married into a family of lawyers, and they have joked that when I get my degree they will have another doctor in the family. I have said, it is different, and they have said, yes, but it is very much the same as well.

This reminds me of Kaiser, who used to put Dr. in front of their Nurse Practioners, as they do not have enough Dr's on staff for all patients. The law required them to stop this several years ago, since a NP is NOT a Dr., just like a Medical Dr. is not a Business Dr., but both are respected in their own terms.

 

And what about post doctorates and the like (I know little about it and just made a thread to ask)?

Are they harder/longer than the regular PhDs? Would this be hard enough to have the same coursework as a MD?

I know I am full of questions that are almost useless, but I am getting more and more fascinated by the academic world after I found this forum

Thanks to all.

 

I meant equivalent coursework+ post coursework as a MD. I can't edit because of the 10 minutes rule. Thanks.

 

In my country, Thailand, MD take only 6 year after high school.
This system look like UK, aus and considering as Professional Bachelor degree.

 

No contest... MD by far

Contrary to what elitist academics would have you believe, professional doctorate programs (MD, DO, JD, etc) are usually much more challenging.

The MD is far more difficult to earn than any other degree. PhDs are simply not in the same category as MDs. In my opinion, JD (law school) programs are also more demanding. The JD/PhD students at my school agree.

Like most PhD programs, JD programs consist of 90 post BA/BS semester credits. The main difference is that JD credits are jammed into 3 years of full time study. Student employment restrictions, extreme grading curves, competitive class ranking systems, not so flexible course schedules, and hostile Socratic methods, etc. are just a few things academics are not forced to deal with in their supportive and lovey dovey class settings.

Anthony Pina states: The academic requirements for an MD degree (4 years undergrad + 4 years MD coursework) are less than for a typical PhD (4 years undergrad + 2 years masters + 3-4 years PhD coursework + 1-3 years dissertation) ......

In my opinion, this simply isn't accurate. More time does not equal more coursework. The fact that students can take 2 years to earn 30+ credit hour fluff filled Master's degrees, shows how demanding such programs really aren't.

And there is just no way it should take 3-4 years for those with Master's degrees to complete their PhD coursework. Similarly, with effort, PhD dissertations can definitely be completed within one year. Who takes 3 years? Coma victims?

Bush04, MBA
JD in progress (ABA)

 

Re: No contest... MD by far

It's nearly imposible to complete a dissertation in one year in science or engineering field.

 

One thing that's different about these two degree programs is that, typically, the Bachelors level work done prior to obtaining an MD is absolutely critical. You grades must be close to perfect plus ypu've got to have some extra "stuff" to put on your application such as experience in medical research, etc. You can earn only "good" undergraduate grades, get into a decent Masters program and after some experience earn admission to a decent PhD program.
Jack

 

Fluff-filled??

In some schools, as Dallas TS, the standard prerequisite to begin the doc in Theology is the FOUR year masters called ThM. This is 120+semester units beyond the BA including Hebrew , Greek, thesis, and comprehensive. That's eight years just to start the doc! Then the PhD at DTS is at least another three to five years with two more languages and dissertation. I don't know if the program is more rigorous or durative than a MD, but it, for one, certainly is not filled with "fluff"!

 

The nice thing about professional degree programs (MD,JD,D Pharm, etc) is that, whatever the degree requirements ARE, they are SPELLED OUT and there is a pretty rigid timeline to complete them. If you START a professional program, you have only to do the "ticket punching" to finish it.

Granted, the ticket punching in law school was damned difficult, very demanding and very stressful, but there was little games playing; the school wanted us to finish and be gone.

PhD work, IIUC, is not like this at all. There is little faculty supervision or control over the research and dissertation process; it is literally all up to the student. This is a different kind of challange, and one that scares the daylights out of me, anyway.

In my law class, we had an MD, a PhD and numerous master's degree holders. There seemed to be little connection between having completed a graduate degree and ability to cope in law school.

 

Re: No contest... MD by far

Bush04 (I like that name),

You are certainly entitled to your opinions, some of which I agree with (such as more time not equaling more coursework). However, your characterization of PhD programs displays a lack of knowledge of what actually occurs in these programs. Although "fluff" masters and even doctoral programs do exist, the idea that all JD programs are demanding while all PhD programs are "lovey dovey" (which, I assume, means "less demanding") is, of course, silly.

I am unconvinced that 90 credits...

"jammed into 3 years of full time study. Student employment restrictions, extreme grading curves, competitive class ranking systems, not so flexible course schedules, and hostile Socratic methods, etc. "

...equates to a superior learning experience. It sounds like law schools might do well to be a bit more "supportive". Just because one academic program is more punishing than another does not make it superior.

ABA requirements severely limit the amount of employment that law students are allowed to have while in law school. This is as it should be if you are required to take 15 units of graduate courses every semester. 9 graduate units is generally considered to be full-time. Those who are enrolled in non-law masters (and especially doctoral) programs are often employed full-time, so the reasons for enrollment in MA/PhD programs can be quite different that those for a JD. It can be just as rigorous to take 9 units and work as it is to take 15 units.

By attending classes year-round and working at the university, I was able to finish my 44 unit "fluff-filled masters degree" in 1 1/2 years. I assume that you completed your MBA (which, of course, is not a "fluff" masters at all) in less time. Since MBA programs do not generally require research theses and JD programs do not require dissertations, I would suggest that you try doing a dissertation and get it accepted and defended before you pontificate about how easy they are or how quick they are to do.

Really, Bush04, this whole "my doctorate is better than yours" nonsense is just adolescent ranting. Completing an MBA is a great accomplishment and completing a JD will be a great and admirable accomplishment--one of which you can be justly proud. Belittling someone else's PhD; however, will not make your JD any greater.

Best wishes and best of luck in your studies.

Tony

 

Good point. You can get into many masters programs with a 3.0 undergrad GPA. I do not know of any MD program that doesn't require above a 3.5, plus all the other stuff that you mention as well.

I agree with the opinion that the combination of entrance requirements, coursework and post-coursework professional requirements makes the MD the most difficult doctorate to attain.

Tony Pina
Faculty, Cal State U. San Bernardino

 

Anthony Pina,

Actually, one of the MAIN criticisms of the American law school experience is that it is almost sadistically unsupportive. The movie "Paper Chase" is not much of an exaggeration. There is allegedly very little difference amongst the vast majority of ABA schools; the atmosphere is viciously competitive and adverserial by design. One's fellow students are uniformly very, very bright and often hideously ambitious.

Trouble is, law school probably HAS to be this way because its graduates will enter a legal system that is also viciously competitive, adversarial by design, and almost sadistically unsupportive. On top of all this, the legal system rewards its few winners almost beyond the dreams of ordinary averice.

"Here's a dime; call your mother; you'll never be a lawyer." -Prof Kingsfield in Paper Chase

 

I don't seem to be able to spell today!

 

In my current position (2 days left) I come into contact with both PhDs, MDs, Psychiatric Residents and Medical Students (typically third year). The medical students say that getting in to medical school is the hardest part. If you are smart enough and have developed the proper study habits such that you've been admitted to med school then you'll make it through. For the most part, you have to either resign or completely self-destruct in order to not make it. PhD's are just the opposite, the toughest part is saved for the end.
I read this once:
Earning an MD is like being dragged behind a car while it goes from NYC to LA. The ride is brutal but predictable (down to the minute).
Earning a PhD is like being let loose in the wilderness of Maine, with a map of Cleveland, and being told to travel on foot to San Diego.
Jack
(I hope to visit San Diego someday but so far I've only made it to Connecticut)

 

Nosborne,

That really makes a lot of sense, as does Jack Tracey's, post. Both law schools and medical schools are training people for working conditions that tend to be quite unlike those faced by us academics. Perhaps the reason that some of us choose the less lucrative route of academia is that our egos are too fragile for the "viciously competitive, adversarial...and...sadistically unsupportive" world of law and medicine. Of course, it may also be that some of us get queezy at the sight of guts and that others get headaches at the sound of legaleze. .

Tony
(one of those guys with the "fluff" degrees who "can't do")

 

I do not think that studying 16 hours a day for 3 years is more work than studying 8 hours a day for 6. It is not more work, just way more unpleasant.

I read Scott Turow's book about Law School and it seems that, as tough as the first year at Harvard is, an Economics PhD from Chicago GSB would require the same or even more work, but with more time to do it.

What I mean is that the most effective comparison would be in time of study (including activities like research and residence, of course) required to get the degree. Not in years, but in hours (years x how many hours a week).

So, what do you guys think. MDs, PhDs, post doctorate courses (like that German one), JDs, Professorships, how does one relates to each other?

And remember it is not a personal thing. If you have to study and work, of course you will have a hard time than people who only study (considering no difference in the other variables), but this does not change the work inherent to the course.

Thank you very much for your insightful opinions, everybody.

 

Apples, oranges, kiwis, bananas.
Jack