What Constitutes a Personal Attack?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by Gus Sainz, Aug 9, 2003.

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  1. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    In another thread, Bill Huffman brought up a very important point. What, precisely, constitutes a personal attack? We have recently seen, here in our little community, an increase in both the allegations of personal attacks (many unfounded) and, IMO, actual personal attacks.

    I have given this issue much thought lately as I have recently been repeatedly accused of personally attacking other members of this forum. Although I have asked for specific examples and quotes from my accusers, none have been forthcoming. (Not that I didn't offer an incentive, mind you. ;) )

    My overall impression is that much of what some people are regarding as personal attacks stem from an incomplete understanding of the nuances of the English language. If, for example, I were to state (as I often have) that anyone who tries to pass off a substandard degree as a legitimate one is dishonest and a fraud, does this constitute a personal attack? I understand how some may take offense, but have I personally insulted anyone? If someone describes a particular behavior and I opine that I consider that behavior unethical, have I called that individual a scam artist? I think this is more a question that if they themselves believe the shoe fits…

    Similarly, some consider simply stating that a particular school is a degree mill a personal attack. I can understand the “graduates” of that school being insulted and hurt, but does that really constitute a personal attack? I think not.

    If you call someone a liar or dishonest and provide specific proof, does that constitute a personal attack? There is a fine line here, but my feeling is that if it pertains to comments made on this forum and is relevant to the credibility and believability of the poster and the statements being made, then it is not. It is simply a statement of fact. An unpleasant fact, I’ll grant you, but a fact nonetheless. Moreover, it is relevant to the issue of misinformation.

    The fact remains that aside from the discussions we have for our own amusement, many come to this forum looking for information on distance education. As such, we the membership have a serious responsibility to correct any misinformation that is posted. As misinformation, by its very nature, is difficult to defend, we see those who don’t have the common sense to back down in the face of overwhelming contradictory evidence resorting to such tactics as lies, half-truths, innuendos, goading, threats and true personal attacks. After truth and logic prove ineffective tools in the quest to stop the flow of misinformation (some posters repeat the same message ad infinitum in the belief that volume is an appropriate substitute for veracity), some of us (and I am as guilty as any and perhaps more than most) succumb to the temptation of mocking the paucity of logic, pointing out the blatant lies, and having a bit of fun with fallacies. Lacking the humor, wit, logic, and command of the language to respond in kind, oblivious to what constitutes a subtle jab, and unable to understand the difference between criticism of behavior rather than that of the individual, many of these posters resort to ad hominem attacks out of, what I am sure must be, sheer frustration. I am of the opinion that many of these individuals don’t have a serious interest in distance education and frequent this forum for other, personal, reasons.

    Sadly, in the U.S., as a society, we have moved from a philosophy of rights (in which we feel we are entitled to what we want) to a philosophy of victimization (where any time we don’t get what we want, we believe we have been victimized). Needless to say, the only people who are benefiting from this are the attorneys. Similarly, if the signal to noise ratio of the aggregate of DegreeInfo’s posts continues to decline, the only ones who would benefit are the degree mill owners and those who hold and promote fraudulent credentials.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 9, 2003
  2. plcscott

    plcscott New Member

    Gus:

    After a long thought on this issue you have determined that everyone else is thin skinned, and you are right as usual. Did I sum that up correctly?

    BWA HA HA!

    :D :D :D
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 9, 2003
  3. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    I think Justice Potter Stewart of the US Supreme Court said it best in Jacobellis v. Ohio;

    "I can't define pornography, but I know it when I see it".
     
  4. fnhayes

    fnhayes New Member

    Gus obviously has a very short memory and his waffling about not abusing people shows he knows not what he writes; for he has abused me and my brown teal publication on no less than ten occasions. And on countless other occasions he has abused everyone who dare say anything positive/informative about
    non-RA DL institutions, has abused Henrik in a most vile manner, has abused Peter French, has abused plcscott, has abused James, and has abused almost everyone on DegreeInfo at some time or other.
    This is not a personal attack, but Gus rarely makes any sensible/informative contribution to DegreeInfo.
    Dr Duck
     
  5. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    Yes. Thank you. You continue to provide me with excellent examples of what I meant when I wrote:
    • Lacking the humor, wit, logic, and command of the language to respond in kind, oblivious to what constitutes a subtle jab, and unable to understand the difference between criticism of behavior rather than that of the individual, many of these posters resort to ad hominem attacks out of, what I am sure must be, sheer frustration. I am of the opinion that many of these individuals don’t have a serious interest in distance education and frequent this forum for other, personal, reasons.
     
  6. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    Gus, in reference to your long winded post/diatribe, is the above a personal attack? :confused: :D
     
  7. Dennis Ruhl

    Dennis Ruhl member

    What constitutes a personal attack.

    The obvious answer is disagreeing with Gus.
     
  8. Dennis Ruhl

    Dennis Ruhl member


    Duck Boy,

    Why does Gus have to put up with attacks like this? Comments like these that make him worry about his family.
     
  9. plcscott

    plcscott New Member

    Re: What constitutes a personal attack.

    Actually Dennis, the above is what instigates an attack. :D
     
  10. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    Not in my opinion, but if you were to repeat it incessantly while not offering any reasons as to how you arrived at this conclusion, then it would constitute senseless harassment, and I might change my mind.

    Keep in mind, however, that most statements that include words like “always” and “never” (dead giveaways on tests) are typically fallacies. Therefore, to make the kind of statement you provided as an example about anyone would be idiotic. Then again, there are always exceptions… :D
     
  11. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    I must thank you as well for providing another excellent example of the point I was trying to make: Justifiable criticism does not constitue a personal attack.

    For example, you have made a series of accusations without providing a scintilla of evidence. If, for example, I have abused you and your masterpiece on no less than ten different occasions, would it be too much trouble to provide a single example (quotes, please)? I am curious as to what you believe constitues abuse.

    I understand that proving that I have abused everyone that has spoken positively about non-RA DL institutions is an impossible task, so I won’t ask. I’ll even refrain from commenting on how ridiculous such a statement is. :rolleyes:

    Could you please (as you have now mentioned it numerous times) provide a specific example of the vile abuse to which I subjected Henrik? Does Henrik feel this way? Has he told you this? Personally I think he would be embarrassed to have you speak for him and make the allegations you are making.

    Could please (as you have now mentioned it numerous times) provide a specific example of the vile abuse to which I subjected Frenchie? Has Frechie also elected you to speak on his behalf?

    Could you please provide a specific example of the vile abuse to which I subjected this anonymous individual? Has he also given you permission to speak for him and champion his cause?

    Could you please provide a specific example of the vile abuse to which I subjected James? Have you consulted with James before voicing this opinion?

    Wow! Well that explains it; it seems that you were elected to speak on everyone’s behalf. It sure sounds I should have been banned a long time ago. Are you suggesting that the moderators and administrators of DegreeInfo are a bunch of incompetent fools?

    Well, if it is not a personal attack, what is it? All I see are a bunch of accusations that, just like all the previous times you made them, aren’t accompanied with any corroborating evidence. Do I care? Naaah. I am just constantly amazed at how little some people care about making a complete fool of themselves in a public forum. Then again, some people have nothing to lose.

    I don’t really expect you to post any evidence or examples, much less answer any questions, because never have done so in the past. Let me just ask you this. What do all the individuals you are accusing me of abusing have in common? Do you know? Care to guess? (As you never answer any questions, I will take the liberty of replying.)


    • They all, including you, at one time or another, promoted degree mills and fraudulent or substandard schools on this forum. That’s it!
    Moreover, as to making any contribution to DegreeInfo: Oh, puhleeze! Don’t you realize that the reason guys like you post messages like yours (all the while regaling in the cheering of their cohorts) is precisely because of my contribution? Contrary to what my detractors think, I’m not complaining; considering who they are and their beahvior, the more of them there are, the more cheap shots they take, the more I feel I like am accomplishing something here. :D :D :D
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 9, 2003
  12. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    An idea!

    Gus,

    With no due respect, you are a witty jackass. :rolleyes:
     
  13. Dennis Ruhl

    Dennis Ruhl member


    You have a good point. When you got banned at the old forum Distancedegree, you whined like a baby. Perhaps they don't have the heart.
     
  14. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    Re: An idea!

    Quite frankly, I’m confused. Have you elected to join the ranks of those who disagree with the ideas I evinced but can’t articulate precisely what it is they disagree with, why, or express a viewpoint of their own?

    Mind you, I not disagreeing with you. I am certainly witty and I can be a jackass at times, but on what precisely have you based your opinion? I mean, I can understand the degree mill apologists expressing that belief out of self-interest, but what’s your motivation?

    Moreover, the respect comment was out of line (if for no other reason than I pay your salary and its my money putting you through school).
     
  15. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    Nice attempt at rewriting history, Dennis, but (as is the case with all lies) your statement contains a fatal flaw.

    If I was banned, Dennis, and unable to post, where did this so-called whining take place? :rolleyes:

    Moreover, as many here can attest to, Peter French, the moderator (actually he was just substituting) disagreed with some ideas I had expressed. Unable to logically counter them he chose to instead to express his disagreement by banning me. When the real moderator returned, he reinstated my account and publicly chastised Frenchie for having overstepped his authority and the lack of decorum. Frenchie, embarrassed at the public humiliation and disgusted at what I am sure he considered back-stabbing by a long-time friend and fellow alumni (Bruce the owner of the forum), vowed never to post on that forum again.

    There you go with those self-serving delusions again (or maybe you don’t really believe the stuff you post but it serves your agenda).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 9, 2003
  16. Dennis Ruhl

    Dennis Ruhl member


    Here.

    I like that Peter French guy. Really staightforward. A good judge of character and flaws that lie therein.
     
  17. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: An idea!

    Oh, I've never heard that line before!!! [​IMG]

    I'm joking: It's a line that is commonly used by drunks to police officers. So I'll say to you what I always reply to the drunks:

    You can barely take care of yourself. How are you going to pay my salary? :D
    I've read and re-read your statement -- and now I'm confused. :D
    Of late, I've seen you insult other posters for no noble cause. [​IMG]

    However, I've not kept a logbook of each and every subtle and overt insult.

    We are in agreement on the worthlessness of non-RA degrees. :D
     
  18. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    Quote.
     
  19. Dennis Ruhl

    Dennis Ruhl member

  20. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    Re: Re: Re: An idea!

    I am sure you say that to the drunk respectfully. I don’t believe you tell them, for no apparent reason, as you did to me on this forum, that they are not due any respect.

    Moreover, if any drunk sent the amount of money I remit to Tallahassee (corporate taxes, sales tax, etc, not to mention my contributions to the PBA and PAL) you would be well-advised to show some respect (I am not implying that it should be any more or less than any one else). In any event, I would be cautious in how you treated any drunk you pulled over. You never know, he might be one of our esteemed state legislators (this from personal experience, as I was in the seat next to him). :D

    If, as you say, you think I have insulted another member without cause, could you quote me please? (Why is it that no one acquiesces to my requests?) You did specify that I did so lately, so it shouldn’t be too difficult. Otherwise, it’s quite possible that you may have fallen prey to the shenanigans of those who believe if they repeat a lie often enough it will be thought of as true. That was the major point of my post!

    I know we are, that’s why your comments were so surprising. They were definitely out of character.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 9, 2003
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