US Dept. of Ed - Differences Between Regional and National Accreditation are Unfounded - Same Stds

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Garp, Apr 8, 2020.

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  1. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Not all of us. Some of us are quite glad about the distinction.

    I specialized in nontraditional higher education for my PhD. At the time I began my pursuit, I could not have done that at any university in the world other than Union. Despite the troubles the school experienced in the distant past, I'm thrilled I hold a PhD from Union.
     
  2. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member

    It will take a while for CHEA to catch up. This is still very new (paint is not even dry). Often when terminology changes it takes time for people and other organizations to change as well. Old timers invariably find the transition harder. I have seen that with categories, titles and so on in organizations and of course society at large.

    Afterall, that is why some people still scoff at distance learning and schools like Union and Capella. One outcome of the Covid adventure is that suddenly everyone is online (including medical schools, conferences with breakout sessions, and trainings formerly only available in person). Everyone has had to stretch and discover new possibilities. Some of that push into the 21st Century may remain after the crisis clears.
     
  3. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    CHEA doesn't "catch up." It leads.

    Getting excited about the USDoE switching to "institutional accreditation" seems silly. It is a distinction without a difference. It changes nothing. Plus, the USDoE's role in the matter is extremely narrow. (Title IV funding.) The actual accreditation infrastructure in the US is managed by CHEA and is an outgrowth of the schools themselves in their pursuit of self-governance.

    There is no category of school that I know of--or can be constructed--that would comprise "distance learning schools like Union and Capella." The distinctions there are too many to count.
     
    Vonnegut likes this.
  4. Vonnegut

    Vonnegut Well-Known Member

    I understood that part. They are still RA and NA, it's simply the DOE that doesn't make a distinction. As Rich mentioned, CHEA still places a distinction, schools themselves will maintain the distinction, private sector employers will at times still make a distinction, the main RA bodies are not going anywhere, it's not about subconsciously identifying as such... nothing has changed outside of a DOE policy that is simply a lifebuoy being tossed out to help maintain some of the for-profit NA schools.
     
    Rich Douglas likes this.
  5. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member

    Apparently not.
     
    Life Long Learning and chrisjm18 like this.
  6. Vonnegut

    Vonnegut Well-Known Member

    Care to explain? Curious.
     
  7. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member

    Unless you were in on the decision making you cannot possibly know that.

    Following your line of reasoning, since there is no qualitative difference between RA and NA, maintaining the distinction is simply an attempt to prop up or maintain unjustifiable monopolies by Regional Accreditors. The system is outdated (served a purpose in the last century). This may not be a stopping point but part of an ongoing and necessary evolution. Stagnation is not a good thing.
     
    chrisjm18 likes this.
  8. Vonnegut

    Vonnegut Well-Known Member

    You are correct, it is speculation. However Betsy was very vocal and gave frequent interviews prior to this letter coming out. Her own words speak volumes and is the foundation of that speculation.

    I never stated that there was no qualitative difference between RA and NA, if anything I believe their is a chasm of differences. That's not to imply that an occasional NA school is not comparable with many RA schools, but we are are looking at them from an aggregate basis when making comparisons.

    Stagnation is not a good thing, and interestingly enough RAs require continuous improvement plans, metrics, etc. from their schools as well as their own requirements. We do not have that with many NAs. I mean, we have NAs who regularly accredit degree mills, basement universities, and mysterious strip mall locations. While there are individual success stories, they have a long way to go before being able to be quality assurance vehicles.
     
  9. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member

    Where an organization has administrative offices does not necessarily have anything to do with the metrics used to measure outcomes. As far as I know Walden, Capella and others were all based out of office complexes and borrowed campuses. All are Regionally Accredited. University of Phoenix was in strip malls all across the nation. Calsouthern (RA) likely was in some sort of office complex and may still be. Their current President I believe has her PhD from Newburgh Theological Seminary (and hired a "Chancellor" with academic street cred).

    In terms of qualitative academic differences between RA and NA in basic academic standards, no one has demonstrated substantive differences and the US DoE says differentiation is unjustified.
     
  10. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I'd love to hear why you think that, and what evidence you have to back it up. Your simply-put denial belies more than 100 years of accrediting history.
     
  11. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    They said that? You have a source? Or are you inferring it from their website?

    But none of it really matters anyway. What matters is what other accredited schools, employers, government agencies, licensing bureaus, etc. think. None of that has changed as a result of USDoE seeming to erase distinctions between RAs and NAs. (If that's even what is happening. Again, looking for direct evidence of that, not just inference.)
     
  12. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    The change at ED is less exciting and more inevitable, since, as you rightly point out, their only concern about accreditors is as financial aid gatekeepers.

    But I would disagree that CHEA "leads", since it simply reflects a mix of what its accreditors want and the ambient culture of U.S. higher education in general. I don't see any evidence that they set trends, although I'm willing to reconsider given examples to the contrary.
     
  13. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    And this I am okay with if the position is substantiated by something that has to do with the actual learning part. The current issue is that most arguments about which school is better have nothing to do with the school's educational quality at all and center instead on accreditation entirely:

    "School A is RA therefore it is better than School B because it is NA!"

    Same thing with non-profit versus for-profit status subjects. This is the thinking seen everywhere online. Every now and then someone steps in as a voice of reason, but it's rare.
     
  14. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    Sadly, all the things you mentioned about the office types, plus being for-profit, are what the average Redditor type would use to declare each of those schools "diploma mills". Granted, the average person using that term misuses it, but that doesn't matter since the average person reading it won't see a problem with it, so the damage is done over and over again.
     
  15. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I guess it depends on one's concept of leadership. Within higher education, perhaps not all that much since it is mainly a construct of the member schools and accrediting associations. But from outside higher education, certainly. It is THE determinant of what is and is not higher education in America.
     
  16. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I don't know that this is a fair characterization of the basic argument. Sure, some people engage in it, but I think the real issue centers on degrees issued by accredited schools and their utility. I think it is important to note that there is so much overlap and that so much of the issue is based on individual circumstances. But some blanket statements can be made safely:

    Are regionally accredited schools, as a whole, better than nationally accredited schools? Without serious argument, yes.
    Are degrees from regionally accredited schools more utile than those from nationally accredited schools? Generally, yes.
    Are there individual exceptions to the above statements? Absolutely.
     
  17. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    I agree it's not fair. You're giving the peanut galleries more credit than they deserve however. They're not thinking that deeply into it. After all, when most of their arguments come down to RA or nothing, non-profit or nothing, it's hard to take that kind of thinking seriously just because of the exceptions you pointed out alone. Unfortunately, people do take it seriously, that's where the problem lies. But it goes deeper because there is another level where you have people who dismiss all schools that aren't a name brand or a top ranked school. One example I saw last year was when a poster on Reddit made a thread asking for help with what to do: he'd graduated from WGU, a month had passed since and he hadn't landed a job yet. Someone responded and told him to disregard all of the work he'd done for the past 3 years to earn the degree, run to a top 10 school, spend more money and earn another degree, or he'd never get a job. We're talking a month here, and that's the kind of advice he was being given, and it was being agreed with by thousands of people. This is the kind of over-the-top direction I've been reading for many years when it comes to this. People like that are not considering there are levels (and variables) to utility, it's not simply "go to this school and go on to fortune and fame, or go to the other school and never work again", at least not across the board anyway.
     
  18. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    I did not mean to imply that it was deserved or not. More that it is a fact of life. That doesn't mean people can't joust with windmills but to expect the jousting will really accomplish the goal of leveling the playing field or making it fair is not likely to ever happen. I guess another why to state a similar thing might be to simply say. "Life is not fair."
     
    Rich Douglas likes this.
  19. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Here's a significant difference between DEAC accreditation and regional accreditation: you can't earn a PhD at a school accredited by them.

    And this makes sense. Schools accredited by either association are not really part of the academy. When DEAC decided to get into the game of accrediting schools offering doctoral programs, it required them to be professional doctorates, not the PhD. It still does.

    I think it's worth considering a professional doctorate from a DEAC-accredited school to improve one's practice and even have an impact on one's profession. I've written to that effect on this board and on LinkedIn, a copy of which is on my website in the Blogs section. But such a degree might not always be recognized by RA schools, even if you want to teach as an adjunct.
     
  20. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member

    TRACS accredited schools can award the PhD and they have at least two doing so. Oxford Graduate School (one of them) sounded so much better than Omega Graduate School. Not sure if Oxford U got onto them and they decided they wanted to keep the OGS but I do think they could have come up with a better name. They also appear to have toned down the architecture of their campus and did away with UK style robes.

    ABHE, I am confused about. I think they can award doctorates (there are one or two on their site). Andersonville redid their programs as ThD's and strengthened requirements in preparation for ABHE but at some point recently gave up the ghost. Maybe realized they weren't going to make it due to resources (too much of a stretch academically and financially).
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2020

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