Universidad central de nicaragua (again)

Okay -- apologies if a million posts all turn up at once. I seem to having more luck posting from my phone than my laptop. So I'm trying again. Here's my post:

Although I have my doubts about it, this is not unknown amongst traditionally respected schools. Tilburg and Cranfeild, for example, have a dual DBA / PHD program: Qompas TopDegree - / / General)

Some other universities also offer professional and research doctorates together:

Coordinated JD/PhD Program

https://www.law.arizona.edu/current_students/academic_programs/dualdegrees.cfm

I have only had a very quick look, but there are pages and pages of these in google, some of which are offered inter-departmentally and others of which are offered between universities.

I'm also not entirely sure what the dual degree at SMC / UCN consists of -- but reading between the lines, it looks as though it's a way for a 'business-only' accredited school to offer a program that leads to a recognised PhD. Which, if the curriculum is okay, I wouldn't have a problem with. From the link Johann provided:

"UCN agrees to accept SMC doctorate curricula as equal to the respective degree programs of UCN. UCN agrees to validate academic credits earned at SMCU and shall accept any prior research conducted at SMCU.

Final acceptance of course results and dissertation rests with UCN. UCN retain the right to request course details and examination results from SMCU for documentation and surveillance reasons. UCN retains the right to review dissertation, request changes and also to reject dissertation if deemed necessary."

Based on the above, it sounds as though SMC is offering a mixed curriculum that includes a research component that UCN considers applicable to the PhD in business. And it doesn't look as though it's as simple as mailing off for a second certificate -- provided that the info in the quote is true, of course (I have no reason to suspect it's not).

I don't know a great deal about doctorates in other parts of the world (hell, I don't know a great deal about doctorates in THIS part of the world) but I'm not sure it's clear that SMC and UCN are doing anything that other legitimate universities aren't doing.

I'm waiting to phone NARIC, BTW. I'll update as soon as I have.

(Wow, too many abbreviations in this post, IMHO)

JGD

UPDATE: I spoke to Borgna at NARIC and she confirmed that UCN degrees are recognised and that it is possible to receive a degree equivalency for them

 

Although I have my doubts about it, this is not unknown amongst traditionally respected schools. Tilburg and Cranfeild, for example, have a dual DBA / PHD program: Qompas TopDegree - / / General)

Some other universities also offer professional and research doctorates together:

Coordinated JD/PhD Program

https://www.law.arizona.edu/current_students/academic_programs/dualdegrees.cfm

I have only had a very quick look, but there are pages and pages of these in google, some of which are offered inter-departmentally and others of which are offered between universities.

I'm also not entirely sure what the dual degree at SMC / UCN consists of -- but reading between the lines, it looks as though it's a way for a 'business-only' accredited school to offer a program that leads to a recognised PhD. Which, if the curriculum is okay, I wouldn't have a problem with. From the link Johann provided:

"UCN agrees to accept SMC doctorate curricula as equal to the respective degree programs of UCN. UCN agrees to validate academic credits earned at SMCU and shall accept any prior research conducted at SMCU.

Final acceptance of course results and dissertation rests with UCN. UCN retain the right to request course details and examination results from SMCU for documentation and surveillance reasons. UCN retains the right to review dissertation, request changes and also to reject dissertation if deemed necessary."

Based on the above, it sounds as though SMC's DBA program is a mixed curriculum like that of those above, and includes a research component that UCN considers applicable to the PhD in business. And it doesn't look as though it's as simple as mailing off for a second certificate -- provided that the info in the quote is true, of course (I have no reason to suspect it's not).

I don't know a great deal about doctorates in other parts of the world (hell, I don't know a great deal about doctorates in THIS part of the world) but I'm not sure it's clear that SMC and UCN are doing anything that other legitimate universities aren't doing.

I'm waiting to phone NARIC, BTW. I'll update as soon as I have.

(Wow, too many abbreviations in this post, IMHO)

JGD

I've spoke. To Borgna at NARIC and she has confirmed that UCN is accepted by them and they will issue degree equivalencies for UCN degrees.

 

Thread sequencing

Posted because the thread showed a third page but all attempts to load it redirected to the second page.

Who's on first:

*******************************************

http://www.abbottandcostellofanclub.com/who.html

BUD: I'm telling you: Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know is on third.

LOU: You know the fellows' names?

BUD: Yes.

LOU: Well, then, who's playin' first?

BUD: Yes.

LOU: I mean the fellow's name on first base.

BUD: Who.

LOU: The fellow playin' first base for St. Louis.

BUD: Who.

LOU: The guy on first base.

BUD: Who is on first.

 

Thanks Steve, I figured as much.

JGD is having issues posting so he PM'd me and I'll post his findings here -- very interesting finds and good points:

******************************************************************************************

Spoke to a woman named Borgna at NARIC. She confirmed that UCN is recognised and accepted by them, and that they will issue degree equivalencies for UCN degrees.

Also, I would like to reply to that thread and point out that lots of universities have dual professional and PhD degree schemes. Usually, these are one curriculum that is a mixture of the two, and results in both a DBA and a PhD, or a JD and a PhD. It looks to me like SMC is using such a curriculum (from the link Johann provided, there is a research component) but that SMC doesn't have authority to issue PhDs (their only legit accreditation is business program). So UCN evaluates the work and, if it passes muster, awards a PhD. This sounds okay to me. The only problem left is two different degrees being awarded for one lot of work. But, again, if that's a problem, it applies to a lot of unis (these for example):

Coordinated JD/PhD Program

https://www.law.arizona.edu/current_students/academic_programs/dualdegrees.cfm

Qompas TopDegree - / / General)

I think we would need more information about both SMC's dual doctorate, and these other dual doctorate schemes in general before we passed any kind of judgement -- there may be a problem with the curriculum or the rigour, but I have no reason to think so.

Further, one of SMC's conditions for full accreditation at home is to have 10 (I think, can't quite remember the number) professors engaged in full time research. Offering a PhD program with UCN could be a way to move towards a more research orientated program and thereby approach full accreditation.

Cheers

JGD

 

We'll, that's embarrassing...

Sorry, everybody, for the mass of posts all essentially saying the same thing.

 

Don't sweat it. This is the internet after all, it's unlimited, isn't it?

 

I've read through the posts - thanks, Novadar, Rich and JGD. I'm pleased to hear that NARIC likes UCN and that the SMC/UCN dual doctorates appear to pass experienced
sniff-tests.

That's good news on top of good news, re UCN. It appears the degrees are good in the US and the UK, so they should be good in a lot of other places, as well.

As far as validation of other schools goes, I doubt that UCN would ever "melt down" like U. of Wales did. The validations are probably viewed as a necessary money-maker and I figure the worst that could happen is that the Nicaraguan authorities would tell UCN to put a stop to it, if it was deemed really objectionable.

It still concerns me, though. To recap. on the U. of Wales situation, IIRC, everything was fine until someone blew the whistle - that UoW was validating degrees of a Midwest religious school that did not have recognized US accreditation. Then the floodgates opened, and the 200+ other validated programs came under the microscope, including those of the famous Fazley College...and the sky fell.

Is anyone else concerned about UCN's validating degrees from US schools without recognized US accreditation? Those rather controversial schools are here:

The University of America - The U.A  Degree  Programs

Johann

 

I've read through the posts - thanks, Novadar, Rich and JGD. I'm pleased to hear that NARIC likes UCN and that the SMC/UCN dual doctorates appear to pass experienced
sniff-tests.

That's good news on top of good news, re UCN. It appears the degrees are good in the US and the UK, so they should be good in a lot of other places, as well.

As far as validation of other schools goes, I doubt that UCN would ever "melt down" like U. of Wales did. The validations are probably viewed as a necessary money-maker and I figure the worst that could happen is that the Nicaraguan authorities would tell UCN to put a stop to it, if it was deemed really objectionable.

It still concerns me, though. To recap. on the U. of Wales situation, IIRC, everything was fine until someone blew the whistle - that UoW was validating degrees of a Midwest religious school that did not have recognized US accreditation. Then the floodgates opened, and the 200+ other validated programs came under the microscope, including those of the famous Fazley College...and the sky fell.

Is anyone else concerned about UCN's validating degrees from US schools without recognized US accreditation? Those rather controversial schools are here:

The University of America - The U.A  Degree  Programs

Johann

 

Now there's a fourth page and my last post is supposed to be on it --- but I can't get there or see it. Same problem Novadar had. Something needs to be fixed here! Oh, there it is now ---- twice! :question: :question: :question:

Johann

 

Johann,

I don't like this process either. I get the sense though that this might be more game playing on the UofA side rather than UCN. The text of the validation certificate you linked to earlier refers to UofA's BBPE exempt status, however that is the Religious exemption clause. It looks like they might be exploiting that capability to get ASIC on board and perhaps with ASIC on board, UCN feels it's good enough. I.Have.No.Idea.

There are certainly questions around the "partnership" practice but I feel that if one remains close to the "mother-ship" they should be fine as evidenced by the NACES members and NARIC's positions on the degrees.

 

This does bother me, actually. It's the one thing that bothers me about UCN, because it's the one thing I can't find a satisfactory answer for. UCN seems to be partnered with schools right across the board: legitimate schools like Universidad Catolica de Murcia in Spain, unconventional schools that possess some valid accreditation and are acceptable to some people, like Universidad Azteca de Chalco and SMC, and then places like University of America. It's the last type of school that bothers me.

3 possibilities spring to mind.

The first (which I sincerely hope is the case) is that the institutions UCN are partnered with are all on the up and up, and those places that seem shady now are using their relationship with UCN to raise their game, pursue meaningful accreditation, and raise their academic standards.

The second is that UCN has 'outsourced' their international operations to some degree or another. Either letting another school (Azteca, perhaps?), or a 3rd party entirely, manage their overseas partnerships. I could imagine a legit school contracting a foreign expert to do this. Especially if they were a small school looking to cash in on (legitimate) international interest, and didn't know much about the education landscape outside of Latin America. However, if whoever is in charge of these partnerships is either incompetent or unethical, UCN's degree granting authority could be being pimped out without their knowledge to a couple of less than wonderful schools.

The third, and by far scariest, possibility is that UCN is intentionally enabling less than wonderful schools to function internationally -- perhaps worse than we're aware of here. Who knows for sure? If this is the case then it's an elaborate job that must be producing an unholy amount of revenue, given the sacrifices UCN would make if they were discovered doing this (i.e: if they were intentionally selling their degree granting authority to shitty institutions, they would almost certainly be shut down).

Now, I'd love to believe the first option. But the skeptic in me says that's just not very likely, given what we know of human nature. And although the 3rd possibility scares me, I can't see the likelihood of that being too big either -- after all, they have a 16 year history of churning out accepted graduates at home including medical doctors, psychologists, lawyers, and vets; they're taking part in the formation of new, more stringent, accreditation when most Nicaraguan universities are waiting until they have no choice; and they recently started building a second campus in Jinotep to train surgeons. If they lose their degree granting power now, they're losing a LOT. To me, that doesn't make sense.

So, that leaves option 2... the question is who, and what to do about it?

 

Neither can I. And here's another thing I can't find a satisfactory answer for either. UCN and it Euro-programs are also accredited by the UK-QAC. This is a um-thingy that is said to have also "accredited" the totally bogus Isles International University. See here:

(1) The Quality Assurance Commission (QAC) From the site:

"The international and European programmes of the following recognised overseas institutions have been accredited:

•Azteca University (Universidad Azteca)
•Central University of Nicaragua (Universidad Central Nicaragua) "

QAC (If it QACs like a duck..etc. :smile: ) has been mentioned a few times in the forum. For instance, check out post 10 on this thread on the bogus Irish University Business School.

http://www.degreeinfo.com/accreditation-discussions-ra-detc-state-approval-unaccredited-schools/22057-irish-university-business-school.html

(2) Isles International University - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

More playing in the mud. They're gonna get sticky, if they aren't already. That "unholy amount of revenue" phrase of yours resonates somehow, JGD. :smile:

Johann

 

BTW - the "real" UK agency is QAA. QAC is a look-alike in name only.

Johann

 

And please note: QAC is described in the IIU Wiki as 'an accreditation company owned by IIU's executive president.'

So - again - what is a mill executive's captive "accreditation" outfit doing accrediting programs -or anything else - of Azteca and UCN? Doesn't look promising - any more so than UCN's validations of US schools with no recognized accreditation.

The old adage is that a person is judged by the company he/she keeps. Who knows -- a school might, too - at some point.

Johann

 

You've certainly got to hand it to QAC -- they make ASIC look good! Ha ha, oh dear.

You're right, bogus accreditation agencies and less-than-wonderful schools appear to be UCN's achilles heel. One can't help but wonder why, since it also has real accreditation at home (and is working towards more), and partnerships with decent schools. They actually don't need anything extra to be legit -- they just need to shave off these relationships.

I hope that they re-evaluate their friendships and accreditation in the very near future.

Incidentally, although QAC is a problem, it doesn't bother me overmuch. I feel similar about it to ASIC. If it were the only accreditation UCN had, I would worry, but it seems to be an 'extra' they've tacked on for the overseas market. Whether that was done knowingly [I hope not] in an effort to look good to the ignorant, or unknowingly [I hope so] because they've mistaken it for legitimate [or been told it is by a third party] I couldn't say. For me, the partnerships with a couple of less than wonderful's are the bigger worry because, unlike phoney accreditation that can be dropped at a moments notice, academic partnerships MAY imply shared visions, goals or work.

But I suppose this is a case of 'time will tell' unless any of us have access to UCN's upper echelon. I wonder how long UCN has had QAC accreditation?

 

Since March 8, 2013. Here's UCN's QAC "Accreditation Certificate":

http://www.businessschooldirect.info/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/QAC_Certificate_UCN_2013_signed.78183756.pdf

¡No me gusta! :sad:

Johann

 

OK - We've established that ASIC and QAC are two problems. I'd say the US "validations" are a third. How many problems would it take to really bother you? Please let me know and I'll try to supply the required number. Shouldn't be too difficult. :smile:

Johann

 

BTW - I stlll agree, nothing wrong with the degrees of the "mother ship," UCN. But all this other stuff does bother me. Back on page 1, the OP wisely said "who knows where I'll be in ten years time?" By the same token, who knows what things like ASIC, QAC and validation of degrees of unaccredited entities etc. will lead to in that same ten years?

Johann