Universidad central de nicaragua (again)

OK - we've said enough times, UCN is legit and its degrees are fine.

Still, I'm just mystified as to why there's all this cross-validation, including UCN's validating degrees of US schools that seem to be legal-but-unaccredited. I hope this doesn't have the potential for a U. of Wales situation, even though any similar calamity would not invalidate degrees already earned. Some of these schools that UCN and Azteca both validate, have been cussed-and-discussed at considerable length in this forum. Here they are...again:

The University of America - The U.A**Degree* Programs

Apparently, there's something called a Deanery (not a Beanery) in Austria that issues UCN and Azteca validations for European use?? Here's a sample.

http://ua-edu.us/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/UoAmerica_UCN_Validation_Certificate.344212043.pdf

What exactly is going on here? My mill-radar is going positively off the chart! :question: :question: :question:

Johann

 

Oops - sorry. That Austrian org. is a Deanship, not a Deanery. My bad.

Johann

 

Whole lotta validation goin' on at UCN. Here's another thing that's got me scratching my head a bit:

SMC University in Switzerland is Cantonally-approved. OK. That makes it legal. It's also good enough that ACBSP have accredited many of its business programs, as it has with other Cantonally-approved Swiss schools.

SMC has an arrangement with UCN that, on completion of their DBA program, a DBA from SMC is awarded and, on request, the holder may also receive a Ph.D. in Business Administration from UCN. Same with three other Doctorates - earn a Professional Doctorate at SMC and, on request, receive a second doctorate - a Ph.D. from Universidad Central de Nicaragua - no extra work.

Here it is: dual doctorate phd | Programs general

What do other members (who know far more about doctorates than I do) think of this? Any concerns with this "earn DBA, also get Ph.D." program?

Johann

 

The University of Wales... One of Universidad Azteca's Study Information Centres is the Interuniversitäres Kolleg für Gesundheit und Entwicklung in Austria and Switzerland, see Universidad Azteca - Greece

Here's a link to what Interuniversitäres Kolleg labels "British Evaluation" on its web site http://www.inter-uni.net/static/download/about/evaluation_report_british_university_system_en.pdf

 

Here's the Wiki on SMC and SMC University, if it helps. Swiss Management Center - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia SMC degrees were, at one time, not recognized by Texas Higher Ed, citing lack of institutional accreditation. I don't know if that stance has been relaxed or not. ACBSP never had a problem, considering Cantonal approval as sufficient degree-granting authority. I don't believe there have been any problems with SMC degrees in other States, although from the Wiki etc. recognition seems somewhat limited on SMC's home turf.

My question is not the quality of SMC's degrees - or UCN's. It's the practice of granting a Universidad Central de Nicaragua Ph.D., upon receipt of an earned SMC DBA or other Doctorate. Do you folks - all smarter than me - see any problem here?

Johann

 

Johann, I share your bemusement at the situation with the international partnerships. 3 possibilities spring to mind instantly, all of which rely on the assumptions that UCN operates legitimately at home and is trying to develop an international presence. If either of those assumptions are incorrect, more possibilities obviously appear:

1 -- The universities UCN is partnered with are either trying to up their game and achieve legitimacy in their own right, or have convinced some decision maker at UCN that they're doing so. I am not familiar with the universities in totality, however they seem to run the gamut from legit (Universidad Católica San Antonio de Murcia, Spain) through legit but 'salesy' or questionable (Universidad Azteca de Chalco, Mexico) to the downright dubious (University of America, above). Obviously, given that I'm considering UCN, I strongly hope that their partnerships have been made with the goal of raising up the academic game (and accreditation status) of some of their partners.

2 -- It's possible that UCN is allowing a 3rd party to form relationships and deal with overseas marketing (whether their own overseas branch in Germany, someone at Azteca, or some invisible 3rd party operating on behalf of all the partnered institutions) and either greed or ineptitude has resulted in some bad partnerships.

3 -- We may have a university of Wales situation going on, where UCN is knowingly pimping out their legitimate degree granting authority. I doubt this personally, because UCN isn't in the position of security Wales was -- it's in the process of working with new accreditors in Nicaragua (CNEA) to obtain the best accreditation possible, which seems to run counter to poor academic relationships. Of course, the bid to CNEA accreditation could be a front to ship more credibility to people like me, but given how bloody difficult it was to find out, it seems unlikely.

Ultimately, I doubt UCN is 'safe' enough to go full out Wales -- they seem to have big plans for the future with a second campus on the way and better accreditation. But I'd also be surprised if places like UofA are completely above board and trying to legitimise their operations. That, to my mind, leaves the second option as the most likely possibility. Although I have no idea of how to find out for sure.

 

I do have concerns about this. However, it doesn't sound (provided this info is honest) quite as simple as just asking for a PhD and getting one. It sounds as though some of the same work is re-evaluated on the basis that SMCU contains a research element that UCN considers potentially deserving of a PhD, and the student may be refused one. From your link:

"A successful graduate of SMCU will consequently apply for validation with UCN. SMCU will forward all required documentation to UCN. UCN agrees to accept SMC doctorate curricula as equal to the respective degree programs of UCN. UCN agrees to validate academic credits earned at SMCU and shall accept any prior research conducted at SMCU. Final acceptance of course results and dissertation rests with UCN. UCN retain the right to request course details and examination results from SMCU for documentation and surveillance reasons. UCN retains the right to review dissertation, request changes and also to reject dissertation if deemed necessary." [Relevant parts bolded for emphasis by me]

Also, a quick google search suggests dual degree programs are common in (traditional) higher education nowadays. How they compare to SMCU and UCN, I don't know. And whether or not they are viewed favourably by the world in general, no idea.

 

I jolly well will, old bean!

Phoned today but they were closed -- bank holiday. I'll have another go from work tomorrow and let you guys know how it goes.

 

This "compact" of schools - it sometimes describes itself as such - appears to be very inter-related in some aspects. It's worth noting:

Dr. Dr. Gerhard Berchtold operates the UCN Deanship in Austria, also directs Business School Direct there, is European Campus Branch Rep. for Universidad Azteca, and holds positions with Universidad Central de Nicaragua itself and also University of Northwest Europe.

http://www.businessschooldirect.info/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Gerhard_Berchtold_clip_CV_en_09.223214357.pdf

Wow! Interesting person! Somewhere in his bio, there must be a degree in International Multitasking! :smile:

Johann

 

Johann,

Here are my observations on the topics at hand.

The Universdad Central de Nicaragua has an International Programmes office at the main location in Managua. Dr. Berchtold is the European Dean and operates the European Office located in Austria. They also have a representative in the Middle East and another in India. This is much like the University of Maryland - University College. For decades they have provided degree programs primarily to members of the US Armed Forces around the world through their European and Asian Divisions. I taught for them briefly in South Korea, part of the Asian Division, just before I left Active Duty in the US Army. The Dean of the Asian Division had extensive authority and needed very little clearance from the main campus in Adelphi Maryland. He also was a Faculty Member (Full Professor) at the Main Campus. I am not saying the UCN arrangement is the same but it is not the first of its kind.

My friend, and likely your's as well, Google: reveals a smattering of Dual Degree programs around the globe involving reputable institutions. Here are some links for your reading pleasure. The most interesting involves France and your Nation - Canada -- it echoes the parameters of UCN's degrees with Universidad Azetca, SMC, etc.

Joint PhD Program or Thesis Cotutelle:

Doctoral students also have the opportunity to enroll in an international program and to earn, upon their thesis defence, a double degree or a joint degree for a PhD program.

It looks even more impressive because apparently there is funding available for students.

Double and Joint Degrees and Joint PhD Degrees (


Others
Cornell Law School: International Dual Degrees
Turin/Interuniversity Centre
SMA :: Prospective Students : Programmes : MST

 

More Thesis Cotutelle

Here are a few more. These are quite interesting.

PhD: PhD Thesis "En Co-tutelle" (co-tutoring doctorates)
NTNU - Joint degrees and cotutelle - NTNU
Center for Doctoral Studies » Cotutelle de thèse

 

Even more proof Dual Degree awards is an established practice.

The University of Turin (Italy) has a whole page dedicated to this topic and lists of forms related to properly executing the agreement reflecting a wide range of nations

PhD: PhD Thesis "En Co-tutelle" (co-tutoring doctorates)

http://www.unito.it/unitoWAR/ShowBinary/FSRepo/Area_Portale_Pubblico/Documenti/C/cotutelle_other_countries.pdf

 

Hmmm... I posted before. Has it disappeared, or is it awaiting validation...?

EDIT: Sorry for the useless post. I was checking to see if it would force through earlier posts I made, but I guess they've been lost in the aether :-(

Oh well, I'll respond tomorrow, bedtime for now. Night guys.

 

Novadar - message understood. Those programs you cited are all

(1) programs involving two universities, each of excellent standing
(2) programs where a Ph.D. curriculum is followed, leading to the award of a Ph.D. from each school.

These questions remain:

(1) It seems the ACBSP-accredited SMC programs lead to professional doctorates, DBA etc. although a Ph.D. is co-awarded by UCN. Is this difference a problem?

(2) What is going on with the UCN validation of US schools with no recognized Regional or National accreditation? That doesn't sound proper at all!

http://ua-edu.us/ua_degree_programs The only common ground seems to be that UCN and these schools mostly have unrecognized-in-US "accreditation" by ASIC. And that's something, in the case of UCN, that I'd like to forget.

Johann

 

I don't like it because a PhD and a DBA are different. It will seem as if someone had earned two doctorates. And hey, who in his right mind would do something like that? :wink:

 

I appreciate your informed opinion. I have earned no doctorates at all -- but my instinct told me this might be found objectionable in academic circles.

Who indeed? :wink:

Johann

 

Although I have my doubts about it, this is not unknown amongst traditionally respected schools. Tilburg and Cranfeild, for example, have a dual DBA / PHD program: Qompas TopDegree - / / General)

Some other universities also offer professional and research doctorates together:

Coordinated JD/PhD Program

https://www.law.arizona.edu/current_students/academic_programs/dualdegrees.cfm

I have only had a very quick look, but there are pages and pages of these in google, some of which are offered inter-departmentally and others of which are offered between universities.

I'm also not entirely sure what the dual degree at SMC / UCN consists of -- but reading between the lines, it looks as though it's a way for a 'business-only' accredited school to offer a program that leads to a recognised PhD. Which, if the curriculum is okay, I wouldn't have a problem with. From the link Johann provided:

"UCN agrees to accept SMC doctorate curricula as equal to the respective degree programs of UCN. UCN agrees to validate academic credits earned at SMCU and shall accept any prior research conducted at SMCU.

Final acceptance of course results and dissertation rests with UCN. UCN retain the right to request course details and examination results from SMCU for documentation and surveillance reasons. UCN retains the right to review dissertation, request changes and also to reject dissertation if deemed necessary."

Based on the above, it sounds as though SMC's DBA program includes a research component that UCN considers applicable to the PhD in business. And it doesn't look as though it's as simple as mailing off for a second certificate -- provided that the info in the quote is true, of course (I have no reason to suspect it's not).

I don't know a great deal about doctorates in other parts of the world (hell, I don't know a great deal about doctorates in THIS part of the world) but I'm not sure it's clear that SMC and UCN are doing anything that other legitimate universities aren't doing.

I'm waiting to phone NARIC, BTW. I'll update as soon as I have.

(Wow, too many abbreviations in this post, IMHO)

JGD

 

Am I losing more posts?

EDIT TO INCLUDE POST IT WON'T LET ME UPLOAD (for some reason):

Although I have my doubts about it, this is not unknown amongst traditionally respected schools. Tilburg and Cranfeild, for example, have a dual DBA / PHD program: http://topdegree.qompas.nl/en/Opleiding/5004/79/TiasNimbas-Business-School/The-International-Executive-Doctorate-(DBA+PhD)

Some other universities also offer professional and research doctorates together:

http://www.law.harvard.edu/academics/degrees/special-programs/jd-phd/

https://www.law.arizona.edu/current_students/academic_programs/dualdegrees.cfm

I have only had a very quick look, but there are pages and pages of these in google, some of which are offered inter-departmentally and others of which are offered between universities.

I'm also not entirely sure what the dual degree at SMC / UCN consists of -- but reading between the lines, it looks as though it's a way for a 'business-only' accredited school to offer a program that leads to a recognised PhD. Which, if the curriculum is okay, I wouldn't have a problem with. From the link Johann provided:

"UCN agrees to accept SMC doctorate curricula as equal to the respective degree programs of UCN. UCN agrees to validate academic credits earned at SMCU and shall accept any prior research conducted at SMCU.

Final acceptance of course results and dissertation rests with UCN. UCN retain the right to request course details and examination results from SMCU for documentation and surveillance reasons. UCN retains the right to review dissertation, request changes and also to reject dissertation if deemed necessary."

Based on the above, it sounds as though SMC's DBA program includes a research component that UCN considers applicable to the PhD in business. And it doesn't look as though it's as simple as mailing off for a second certificate -- provided that the info in the quote is true, of course (I have no reason to suspect it's not).

I don't know a great deal about doctorates in other parts of the world (hell, I don't know a great deal about doctorates in THIS part of the world) but I'm not sure it's clear that SMC and UCN are doing anything that other legitimate universities aren't doing.

I'm waiting to phone NARIC, BTW. I'll update as soon as I have.

(Wow, too many abbreviations in this post, IMHO)

JGD

 

Sorry, perhaps repetitious, but I just wanted to clarify my opinion:

It looks as though it's common for universities to offer a mixed curriculum that results in a professional doctorate / PhD combination. SMC doesn't have the accreditation to offer a PhD. But if they've started teaching a mixed curriculum like other universities and are using UCN to examine the work and award the PhD part of the award at their discretion, I don't see anything particularly wrong with this.

It may even be a step towards accreditation at home, as one of the requirements for SMC will be to have 10 (isn? Can't remember the number) full time professors engaged in research. This might be steps towards that by adding research components to their doctoral level courses.

Just my 2c.

 

Apologies for a pointless message, seeing if my phone lets me post here as I've been unable to post for some time.