UK BA > US MDiv Equivalency

Hello friends!

I may have a chance with a US seminary to gain a scholarship, so I need to know how my UK degree translates over.

I have a B.A. (hons) in Applied Theology, through the U of Wales, UK. I got a "first", which I am told via the Fulbright Commission, equals a GPA of 4.0.

The degree that I want to do, given my 9 years experience working in full-time ministry is a DMin. I am steered this way as most of the info that I read on MDiv mentions "preparation for ministry", which does not fit where I am at on my journey.

I found one theological school in the UK says that my degree is equivalent to an MDiv - see www.kingsdivinity.org/courses/graduate-diploma/137-notes-for-north-american-applicants

So

Ideally I'd like to go "armed" with information to the seminary and be able to point their admissions to the vital information in case they are slow to respond. So can anyone help with my question? or even point me in the right direction please?

If I cannot go straight to Dmin, then, I'd even consider doing a module or two to add to my current degree in order to get me on.

 

I was waiting to see if anyone would jump in, but I guess not, so I'll give it a crack. Just bear in mind that religious degrees are not my forte, although I have picked up a lot of information about them from hanging around here and reading posts by those who are very knowledgeable, and I do know a bit about UK vs. US degrees, so here it goes;

The UK B.A. (Hons) and B.Sc. (Hons) are generally considered to be equivalent to the B.A. and B.S. degrees in the US, which in US terms means 120 (sometimes more) semester units of credit. The M.Div. is a first professional graduate degree, which requires usually 90 semester credits beyond the Bachelor's, although some chaplaincy-based programs only require 75 or so. Either way, you're looking at 2-3 years of full-time study to earn the degree.

For the D.Min., almost any legitimate school is going to require the M.Div. (or equivalent) for admission to the program, and any legitimate school will only accept an equivalency assessment from one of the agencies that specialize in doing them, or they conduct their own assessment. They're not likely to accept a letter from another school that doesn't even offer the degree. Personally, I can't see any credible credential evaluation service stating that a B.A. (Hons) is anywhere close to the equivalent of a M.Div.

So, you're almost certainly going to have to earn some sort of graduate degree to be admitted to a D.Min. program. That's the bad news. The good news is that there are many religious graduate degrees that can be earned much faster than a M.Div., which along with your ministerial experience, might be accepted for admission to a D.Min. program.

Without wanting or meaning to reignite the whole RA vs. NA debate, you're probably going to find more flexibility with a NA school. Check out the schools accredited by these agencies, all of which are approved by the US Department of Education, and totally legitimate;

Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools

Distance Education Accrediting Commission

Association of Biblical Higher Education

If you find some schools that interest you, check back here and we'll put them through the ringer. :smile:

Good luck!

 

Wow, so through Bruce, thank you.

I need some time to digest this. But I will respond soon.

 

From the Kings website:

"King's degree programmes are validated by the University of Chester (validation is the UK equivalent of accreditation in the US)."

I'm not sure that this is strictly true although it might be considered to be true in a slippery way in some cases. We have known more than a few "validated" universities whose degrees would not be considered to be equivalent to US degrees.

 

Aherm. The good news is that King's Evangelical Divinity School is a listed body, a higher learning institution offering courses in the UK that can lead to a degree from a recognised body (UK universities). Chester is a recognised body.

 

I was hoping to jump in yesterday but I was having some login issues.

I think Bruce covered most of this very well. As I have a little bit more experience with religious degrees let me just speak to some of the discussion of equivalency in that space.

Let's review the training of a Roman Catholic priest. It can vary somewhat in the U.S. Some of the variables at play include what education a person has upon entering formation. So if I show up to the Diocese of X and become a seminarian it matters if I show up with a degree in hand already or if I only have a high school diploma. If I only have a high school diploma, I will embark on 3-4 years of philosophy (also called pre-theology) study and earn a bachelor's degree. Then you'll go off to a U.S. based seminary (typically) and earn an M.Div.

But some religious orders and dioceses send their recently (undergrad) degreed seminarians to Rome to study. There they will typically earn a Bachelor of Sacred Theology. The STB or the M.Div. is the requirement for ordination. It isn't the degree level that qualifies you for the priesthood. It is the actual study of theology. Both the M.Div. and the STB have prerequisite requirements that are often met with a B.A. So, in a sense, the STB and the M.Div. are "equivalent" in that they get you to the same goal (priesthood). But there is a reason why many priests studying in Rome hang on for an extra year to earn the Master of Sacred Theology (STM) or even the Licentiate in Sacred Theology (STL). The STB, while it will get you ordained, is not the academic equivalent of an M.Div. If you come back to the states and want to teach at the university level they won't consider your STB to be equivalent to a Masters because it isn't a Masters.

Schools are pretty free to determine what their admission requirements will be. South University (RA, for-profit) has a Doctor of Ministry that, if I'm reading it correctly, allows you to enter the 96 credit hour program with only a bachelor's degree. Though they also have an accelerated track for those with a Masters.

For purposes of obtaining ministerial credentials in some denominations you might very well find that your BA qualifies you where another candidate might require an M.Div. But academically you aren't going to be able to show up at a school that requires a Masters for admission and show them the admission criteria for another school to "challenge" their requirement. Well, you can try but you aren't likely to be successful. Any U.S. based school will likely require an independent evaluation of your program (and they will likely choose the service to prevent you from cherrypicking). So you'd be relying on a service like WES to say that your BA (Hons) is equivalent to a Masters and there has been no information indicating that they would be inclined to do this.

 

Bruce is right that American and British undergraduate degree titles are roughly equivalent, but there's a twist in that in Britain they don't require you to take an undergraduate degree in something else before attending theological college, although some people do. All the first professional degrees are this way: divinity, law, and medicine. In other words, the three-year British B.D. is the same as the three-year American M.Div., and denominations that span both sides of the Atlantic recognise this, like, say, the Anglican Communion. You might find some support there or from a similar denomination that can explain the parallel qualifications for their ordinands.

While I don't know the parameters of your Wales degree, as they've now broken up into their constituent campuses, in Britain the B.A. in Theology is frequently just an alternate title for the B.D., although it can be a four-year degree or even a three-year degree option that's less pastorally focused. Further north, the Scots confuse outsiders by titling their four-year undergraduate programs M.A.'s.

 

When I read the jargon describing the Kings/Chester relationship, not sure why my mind drifted over to the former Trinity (Newburgh)/Univ of Liverpool relationship. Remember the "glossy sticker?"

 

I have a vague recollection of them having a relationship of some sort with the University of Canterbury as well.

 

We should have a forum also for religious education. There is a forum for almost everything else. I am an atheist so I am not advocating religion.
However, I think it be will be cool to have a forum for religious education and discussions.

 

Unfortunately, I don't think there's the interest or potential traffic to warrant it. Most of our religious experts have either earned their doctorates and moved on (Bill Grover), left for other reasons (Tom Head), or have tragically died (Uncle Janko).

 

I am not sure who said it, but I am paraphrasing "if you build it they will come". Anyway your points are well taken.

 

A number of similar suggestions have been made over the years and some of them have been implemented. We now have a Business forum as well ones dedicated to Medical degrees, IT, Education, etc. Personally I'm in favor of having a larger number of specialized fora (I think that's the plural) and I'd like to think that could happen if, as Bruce said, there was sufficient interest. (this is a not so subtle prompt for people to pile on here if they are, in fact, interested in such a change)

 

I never took the sub-fora to be a place where only people with doctorates in those areas could/should/would only post. I have commented on threads in the medical and nursing section often because counseling degrees pop up in there from time to time. I've also commented in the business, IT and high school sub-fora.

Others have too even if their degrees don't match the header.

The benefit, I think, to a specialized sub-forum is that it keeps things organized for future generations of posters and for our many lurkers. Religious degree questions come up a lot. And they often come up here in the main forum. I think this is the perfect place to talk about general trends in higher ed and other broad topics. But the sub-fora allow us to file away those very specific inquiries and give folks a place to look if they have similar or duplicated questions. We don't have that for religious degrees and I, personally, think we might benefit from it.

 

This is spot-on. The US used to have the Bachelor of Divinity (BD) instead of the Master of Divinity (MDiv), but I believe pretty much every school has changed over. Around the same time, the Bachelor of Laws (LLB) used to be the standard law degree, replaced now by the Juris Doctor (JD).

In the case of the BD, it was a graduate degree with a "Bachelor" title. Further study could result in a Master of Theology (ThM) or Master of Sacred Theology (STM). As it stands now, the MDiv is the usual prerequisite for the ThM, but some places (like Dallas Theological Seminary) offer a four-year ThM instead of a three-year MDiv.

In American theological education, the ThM is an optional but helpful degree. It is considered a good ending point for additional academic study for those who wish to get more research-oriented (not professional) education beyond the MDiv but are not able or inclined to pursue a PhD or Doctor of Theology (ThD), both research degrees. It can also serve as excellent preparation for a PhD/ThD program. An MDiv is sufficient for entry into a PhD program, but the ThM often makes the difference in preparation and in admissions competitiveness. Furthermore, it can be an opportunity to study at another school for one year.

The DMin (Doctor of Ministry) is a horse of a different color. It's a professional, not research, degree. It's designed to come after three years of post-MDiv ministry experience. The Association of Theological Schools (ATS) allows schools to waive the three-year requirement in exceptional cases (such as 20 years or so of ministry experience prior to the MDiv), but generally the idea is to allow three years to apply what was learned in the MDiv.

The DMin also almost always expects you to be in a position of some kind of ministry throughout the program, and it usually ends in a project (with a lengthy capstone paper) rather than a traditional dissertation (Or thesis, in British terms).

Practically speaking, there's no way for the OP to be admitted to a credible DMin program.

 

Well, I guess not all of our religious experts are gone!

 

It's a slight (and very frequent) misquote, actually. The original is "he will come," not "they." The line is from the movie "Field of Dreams," starring Kevin Costner as Iowa farmer, Ray Kinsella. From the wiki on the movie:

While walking through his cornfield one evening, Ray hears a voice whispering, "If you build it, he will come." Ray continues hearing the voice before finally seeing a vision of a baseball diamond in his field...

J.

 

I'm far from an expert, but I do know some! I did a BA in ministry and a semester of seminary.

 

You'll do for now. :biglaugh: