Trump supporters are not welcome on our campus

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by decimon, Aug 1, 2017.

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  1. decimon

    decimon Active Member

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  2. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

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    Unlike Princeton, UCF IS a public institution, so they better reign-in this dictator wanna-be before the Feds come a-knocking.
     
  3. decimon

    decimon Active Member

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    Well, if you liked that then you'll love this: What can you learn from Beyonce? What can you learn from Beyonce? - CNN Video

    That three minute video begins with a chart of rising college costs.

    This same fella said he would run off the road people with Trump bumper stickers. And asked if it would be cool if he, a white guy, got a gun to randomly shoot white people.

    Your tax dollars at work.
     
  4. Stanislav

    Stanislav Active Member

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    Yeah, before you do that, please find out what power the "SGA Diversity Director" really has. My guess is not much.
    Much scarier is Trump's speech to law enforcement. Everyone focuses on encouraging police brutality piece; I'm much more concerned about the whole "150 thousand Latino unaccompanied minors animals slicing up beautiful babies" angle. It's scary because apparently a large minority of folks mindlessly eat this stuff up.
     
  5. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

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    It's called creating a hostile learning environment. As Billy Bulger once said, 90% of having power is making people think you have it.

    Right, I and every other police officer in the country are frothing at the mouth about something President Trump, who isn't even in our chain of command, said in a joking manner. A LOT worse stuff is said in police locker rooms, every day.

    I'll also trust the maturity and judgment of police officers over college students.
     
  6. Stanislav

    Stanislav Active Member

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    Granted, I wasn't an undergrad in American college. So tell me: how many students care about SGA and, in particular, it's "Diversity Director"? And why would they? Looks like a sandbox for politically bothered youth, of both wings, to me. Helps identify idiots, like a politically bothered person who'd post screenshot-ready pearls like "X are not welcome on campus" on social media. The guy sure helped his future hiring prospects.

    "It's just a joke" dismissal, about a guy who controls DoJ, and is said to have a "bully pulpit"? Srsly? Besides, here I'm worried less about something he'll actually do (with any luck, not much; too busy tweeting) and more about what he does to the nation's psyche. Didn't even have to wait for election victory to start doing that. And you really scared me about locker rooms.

    Awfully low bar for guys who routinely carry deadly weapons and are trained to use these, dontcha think? I'd like to think RCMP agents are more mature than college students as well; didn't help Robert Dziekanski. Or Philando Castille for that matter.
     
  7. Stanislav

    Stanislav Active Member

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  8. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

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    As you noted in your most recent post, that problem has self-corrected. But to answer your question, many American college students are sheep; give a dominant personality a title (however meaningless) and a pulpit, and they wield a lot of perceived power.

    The POTUS has exactly zero authority over local and state police departments. When Trump made that statement, he was practicing a long-lost (at least since November 2016), esoteric form of communication that's vanished from the mainstream media. It's called "humor".

    It's a low bar to trust someone's judgment? :confused:

    BTW, if Philando Castile had an ounce of common sense, he'd be alive today. If you tell a police officer you have a gun, then make a sudden movement towards an area where most guns are carried, you really can't be too surprised when the officer perceives that as a threat.

    Stanislav, I would LOVE to put you through some shoot/don't shoot exercises, using Simunition (colored paint "bullets"). If you're like the great majority of citizens who do it, you'd be blasting everyone for everything, or end up covered in multi-colored paint because you didn't react aggressively enough.
     
  9. Stanislav

    Stanislav Active Member

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    Wha?

    He was using "joking but seriously" construct. But you are missing what I was saying. The whole speech was about demonizing immigrants; Trump was deathly serious when he did that. Again.

    "Being more mature than undergrads" is the bar high enough to give people authority to use deadly force? I disagree.

    And he deserved to die for that. Why didn't he use his extensive civilian academy training to know how to deal with a cop, who relies purely on instinct and is unpredictable?

    P. S. Philando Castile used more presence of mind and common sense than I would be able to muster in that situation. So did Diamond Reynolds (who never failed to address Yanez "sir" throughout the whole ordeal) and her four-year-old daughter ("mommy, I don't want you to get shooted"). Grading their performance as if they were in a tactical exercise is tone deaf.

    When/if that happens, I hope you would not immediately give me a badge and a gun with real bullets and put me in a patrol car. But this sounds fun; I might try to find out if local community colleges (eg., Humber, where I'm an online adjunct and where they have state-of-the-art police training labs) run something like that for general public.
     
  10. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly

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    First you said this...

    ...but then you said this. Referent power either exists or it doesn't, but pick one.
     
  11. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly

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  12. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

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    Local and state police are not subservient to the Federal government. While we would certainly show the POTUS the respect that the office deserves, he is not in our chain of command, and therefore has absolutely no authority over us. Likewise the FBI; an off-duty FBI Agent got drunk and waved his gun around in a local bar several years ago, he was arrested by local police and tried in state court.


    And you know this because.....??

    Did I specify how much more mature? No, I didn't, but as a general rule, police officers are a LOT more mature than college undergrads. A LOT.

    Excellent question to which we'll never know the answer.

    Grading? I'm pointing out the fatal mistake he made. I've been stopped while off-duty before, I'm always armed, and I've managed to never get shot.

    So you admit that you don't have the training and judgment to make a life or death decision in the blink of an eye?

    Excellent, now we're getting somewhere. Remember that the next time you want to second-guess a police officer in a deadly force situation.
     
  13. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

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    Comparing college undergrads to seasoned police officers is like comparing apples to moonrocks. When some bully with a meaningless title tries to boss around the police, it always ends badly for them.
     
  14. decimon

    decimon Active Member

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    Police departments liaise with the Secret Service in POTUS protection and become well aware of such as JFK's (Jack The Zipper) philandering.

    Locally, it's been oft noted that the NYPD is not in awe of the FBI.
     
  15. Stanislav

    Stanislav Active Member

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    And that is one of many things I admire about America. Well done. Still doesn't support the conceit that POTUS speech is of no consequence.

    Oh, so I am not to assume the biggest premise of his campaign and Presidency is not just one extended bad taste ethnic joke? You know, it does not cease to amaze me when Trump supporters offer these doozies as defence. "Oh, he's just not competent enough to know better" (or quoting Paul Ryan "he's new at this").
    He strokes fear of foreigners. Well, I'm a foreigner. Double foreigner, in fact. Are you?

    Did I ask you how much more mature? It's a meaningless benchmark. How about "mature enough not top shoot innocent civilians to death"?

    Fatal mistake he made? This is precisely why some people distrust and fear the police, Bruce. And the sight of cops applauding Trump's irresponsible speech does not make things better.
    You obviously are waiting for this, so let me pull out the race card, Bruce. You failed to mention the other fatal mistake Philando Castile made, which is driving while black. Or in a police officer words, "resembling a robbery suspect based simply on a wide nose" (literally, "looking black"). Which of the "mistakes" got him killed? There are different opinions on this. But I would say that being stopped 50 times, he was up against the irresistible force of basic probability on this account.
    Since we're trading anecdotes: I met a young Russian guy, a student, at a party in Tampa Florida a couple of times. He drove a beat-up car with busted taillights for years. Being a young student from Russia, he was also prone to both speeding and DYI. He was never stopped once. You explain this one to me.


    Is it too much to ask that this training be sufficient to not shoot innocent civilians while they try to follow your vague orders? I bet you managed to not kill a guy in a situation like this, btw. Or, bringing up the Canadian icon the RCMP, not to torture a guy with a funny accent (Robert Dziekansky) to death? Or more importantly, not to pull all stops defending your own when they do any of this? I mean, if someone wants to see police as a right-wing paramilitary allergic to accountability, there is ample anecdotal support to feed this perception - and FOP's enthusiastic support for Trump, along with the visual of cops applauding his vile speech, are more than powerful anecdotes. It may be unfair, but you guys are not always helping correct this.
     
  16. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly

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    Perhaps. But as with most groups, I wouldn't expect either to be immune to herd mentality. And it's pretty clear even to those of us on the outside that there is such a thing as police culture.
     
  17. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

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    Ah yes, racism. The last line of defense for the left when every other argument fails.

    Hardly.

    He points out the danger of illegal aliens flooding our borders with drugs and crime. I just can't understand why that would resonate with so many people.....

    Accused sex attacker was deported to Mexico 20 times, court documents say | WKRN News 2

    Illegal immigrant awaits trial in San Francisco pier killing

    Did you come to the United States legally? If so, you have absolutely no cause for concern.

    Nope, native-born. The product of 4 grandparents who immigrated L-E-G-A-L-L-Y from Scotland with money on hand, marketable skills, and jobs waiting for them.

    If you only knew how ignorant you sound. Do you have any idea how many times that police use deadly force, every day in the United States? A tiny fraction of them are ever even called into question, never mind generate a criminal investigation. I would put our job performance up against every other profession, without blinking an eye.

    Yes, he fucked up. Sorry I don't couch it in more PC terms, but if he had remained still and done exactly what the police officer told him, as I've done myself before, then he'd be alive today.

    Yup, and you didn't disappoint me. Racism, racism, racism, racism, always racism. It's like a dogwhistle to the left, akin to the MSM's obsession with the Russian collusion witch hunt.

    Never mind the fact that the officer, Jeronimo Yanez, is a minority himself.


    If you can tell me how to prove a negative, then I surely will.


    Here's an idea; how about the police take a nationwide vacation for a week? We can have volunteers such as yourself, who obviously know how to police better than we do, take over for us. You can all show us how it's done, then assuming you're still alive after the week is over, you can teach us these esoteric skills?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 4, 2017
  18. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

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    Of course there's a police culture, the same as there's a lawyer culture, physician culture, etc.

    The ironic thing is, the very reason why the media gets worked up into a frenzy about the police culture, that it's closed and secretive, is a direct result of the media willing to sacrifice the lives and careers of police officers to score a cheap headline. That, and the relentless second-guessing from the public, resulting from that over-the-top hysterical "reporting".
     
  19. Stanislav

    Stanislav Active Member

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    Hate to break it to you, but racism, misogyny, and global warming all exist. Also, tobacco smoking causes cancer.

    Nope. He's scoring political points by scapegoating groups. Eg., "Mexican judge" did not flood your borders.

    Dude, I followed American law to a T. Yet still got blamed right here on this forum for cheating American taxpayer by leaving with my degree - even though it was exactly what the law requires.
    In practical terms, I have very little to worry about. Even if by some miracle Trump manages to pass RAISE Act - its merit-based provisions are likely to benefit the likes of me. I'm just not under any illusion that anti-immigrant folk does not consider me second-class, too - even if a notch better than others.


    No you're not. I'm not familiar with the history of Scottish-Americans, but you can watch the movie "Gangs of New York" to see how Irish immigrants were perceived. Of course, this does not feel real in 3rd generation, does it?


    I freakin' hope so, since you carry guns and other professions don't. How else would I put it?


    The police officer told him to "show his license" and "don't reach for the gun". Which he did. He failed to anticipate cop's unstated expectations - perhaps because he skipped his telepathy class at the DMV.

    Yet both racism and Russian interference are real. Sorry for that.

    He could be black and still afflicted by the unconscious bias, Bruce. It's not about that one cop. If you do not like race angle, how about Robert Dziekanski, a lily white guy from Poland Tazered to death? And the whole RCMP brass shielding his tormentors? There is no trust without accountability.


    Yeah, sure, let's solve a problem of trained cops killing innocents by bringing untrained ones.
     
  20. Stanislav

    Stanislav Active Member

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    You carry guns, Bruce. Yep, American cops are better than what they have in the vast majority of other countries - and you know why? Because of the constant second-guessing and hysterical headlines. Same as with politicians. Funny how that works, huh? Accountability is what separates law enforcement from foreign invaders' gendarmerie.
     

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