Trinity cracks me up

Just recieved an email from Trinity Seminary informing me that their tuition is going up ( Surprise, Surprise, Surprise) and that if I enroll right now I will get a 35% tuition scholarship.

Man, I wish I could pull the trigger.

But I just can't do it.

 

I keep debating enrolling but am not convinced yet. I imagine they keep offering the scholarship to keep folks enrolled as they go through accreditation.

Increases are inevitable......look at NCU....up...up and up.

North

 

I am not convinced either. I keep leaning towards one of the BIG 3.

My latest ideas is this:


Take around 30 upper level ACE approved courses through Seminary Extension for around 1700 bucks including books

Take a semester or two at local community college to finish basics

Enroll at TESC who will SUPPOSEDLY honor all ACE approved course recommendation and then I will have all my Religion courses that I want to take for around 56 credit hour including books.

Now if that plan was just FOOL proof.

 

Nothing is fool proof. I barely got out of ACCS with an accredited degree thanks to their bungling their accreditation. That is partially why I am reluctant with Trinity. I figure that they will probably get full accreditation as odds are in their favor and they seem to have designed their program well (faculty, etc). One person (recent student) told me the work in his courses was substantial. Still...it would be an investment of time and money.

Good luck to you.

North

 

I got two of those "tuition's going up 20% but enroll right now and get 35% off" emails too. Hard for me to not consider such peddling of wares unusual when compared to other experiences I've had with Christian schools. But then, neither do I like Christian "rock" very much. So, maybe I'm just an old fogey? Still, those emails I got remind me of the dickering of the hawkers on Saturday nights who stood in front of the tattoo parlors and the jewelry shops in downtown San Diego to fleece the sailors and the marines of their pay.

But North's friend IMO may have grounds to argue the substance of some TTS programs. Unlike possibly BLD , I do see not think the TTS undergrad and master's programs in Bible/Theology to be obviously deficient.

But, IMO the three courses I took with TTS in the PhD program , while having some substance and while providing occasions for the student to really respond thoroughly in papers to meaty subjects, IF the student would and could, nevertheless were not at the doc level since:

1. While the profs were qualified by degrees to do so ,they did not interact rigorously with the student,

2. Some of the materials used by doc students as textbooks and cassettes ,and even some of the assignments, were also used by Ma and even by BA students,

3. Not one assignment or textbook or cassette in any of the several courses I took was at a doc level IMO.

4. Degree programs, courses, and assignments which should require some interaction at the doc level with the original languages did not require that.

I'd be happy to evidence this with particulars.

 

How long ago did you take these. In other words was this prior to their revamping their program for accreditation?

Second, you dont' like Christian Rock??? I enjoy K-LOVE and it is where I have my radio set most of the time. It has come a long way since Stryper (etc). I was surprised but these artists play music as well and as entertaining as any modern rock group (just different message). We sing some of the tunes in Church. I also like Country. Used to hate it as I found it depressing but since it has grown on me.

North

 

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I took these in 2001. That was 22 years after Trinity began offering DL programs. I took them at a time when Trinity was claiming excellence in DL education. I took them from experienced profs! Given these data, one might suppose that Trinity was already offering in 2001 a substantive doctoral program in Bible. I guess this was prior to a supposed revamping. As I don't know the details of that revamping, I cannot address any differences or possible improvements. Perhaps there are significant improvements.

I would just suppose that 22 years of "quality" experience in delivering DL and having " unparalled excellence" would not require Trinity , unless, of course, that experience and that claim were a bit of stretching the truth, to revamp their program very much! If Trinity already had achieved "unparalled excellence," what more could NCA require?

But here are some questions about the current Trinity doctorate to test the notion of there being significant improvements:

The several US evangelical doctoral programs that I know of in Bible require fairly rigorous prerequisites including not just an accredited master's degree but also evidence of the ability to do research by the completion of an accredited thesis and/or entry exams in the subjects and also the ability to use the original languages in courses and in dissertation. Does Trinity? I don't think so!

Yet, if Trinity does not require accredited masters degrees as prerequisites as do accredited schools and require too plain evidence also of an ability to research, then why would we suppose that Trinity's pool of doctoral students was of the same calibre of students in accredited seminaries which require these things? But if the pool of students were of a lower calibre, then why would we suppose that the curricula could equal that of accredited schools in rigor?

If Trinity does not in its doctoral program in Bible require the student to employ the Biblical languages in his studies when all other RA evangelical doctoral programs in Bible do require that, then why would we suppose that a doctorate in Bible from Trinity could equal the substance of a doctorate in Bible from these other schools? Even South African schools as Unizul, I say 'even' because they do not have programs similar to US ones, if the doctorate is in Bible, as opposed to say, Pastoral Theology, require some grasp of the Biblical languages.

If anyone doubts , EG, that a grasp of Greek is required to interact with the New Testament text at a doctoral level, then I'd be happy to show why this is true! IMO for one to suppose that he is trained to teach the Bible at the college or university level by completing a doctorate in Bible , when he is not by that degree enabled to use the better tools of research or interact with the linguistic issues of the Biblical text, is presumptuous.

Of course in teaching undergrad Bible one will not every day be asked if yahid is the equivalent of agapetos, and why, or whether the original construction of 2 Peter 1:2 is evidence of the divinity of Christ, and why, or whether the verb in John 1:1 , being past tense , is gnomic or historical, and why. But , IMO, a doctorate in Bible implies the ability to research such issues in preparatrion for teaching courses which relate to such issues.

IMO the goal is not to get a doctorate but to learn the Bible.

This in no way is meant to be an attack on the sincere students of Trinity. I guess I just see things differently. My understanding of quality in theological training requires has undergone a change. Perhaps I am not at a higher plane, just a different one. I wish them, and you, friend North, the best, regardless of where you next enroll and regardless of your choice in music.

 

Hello to all,

I just wanted to add my two cents, for what its worth.

I just enrolled in Trinity and I am about half way through my first course, O.T. Survey and it seems to be fairly substantial.

Know mind you, I'm not talking about the Doc. level, but at the associates degree level it seems to be pretty good, so far!

And as far as tuition going, what are you going to do? Everything is going up, look at gas prices!

However, I will say this about Trinity, they are the only school to offer, what seems to be pretty good discounts and tuition assitance that made it affordable for me to enter a RA/NA(HOPEFULLY) degree program.

God's blessing to all,

Rich Hartel

Trinity College of the Bible
A.A. in Theological Studies-(PRESENT)

 

Bill,

I think you are judging Trinity by the wrong standards. No Trinity is not DTS but Trinity is not offering PhD's but DRS's. Also, even if it were offering PhD's... I see Trinity as more of a Argosy, Capella, NCU, Union, equivalent than a Dallas Theological Seminary. They offer doctorates that meet the Regional requirements for doctorates.

Do you have a Dr. Hogg voodoo doll in your home?

North

 

Hi North: My problem is that it's corrupt, as evidenced by MDS and their long-since-demonstrated lying about MDS. Bill's problem is that it's not rigorous. I hope that Rich Hartel and any other bona fide students at TTS get what they've paid for, and that any mountebanks enrolled there keep on wasting their time and money. If TTS were to close MDS (not deny or erase internet evidence--where've we seen that trick???) and quit its gimmicky marketing, and keep to such a path for a few years, my criticism of the place would cease. If they don't do that, not even accreditation will cleanse the taint of corruption from what after all purports to be a Christian school. It'll just be a corrupt accredited school.

 

"It's impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious." (Corollary to Murphy's Law)
http://dmawww.epfl.ch/roso.mosaic/dm/murphy/html
Jack

 

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North

I wish you and all sincere TTS students God's blessing. But, I've been as generous as I feel I can be about the TTS program. We just must agree to disagree about the worth of the TTS D- Uh in Bible! . But should you wish a further expression of my thought, here it is:

Trinity is offering a doctorate , DA , in Bible which purports to equip one to teach Bible.

Why should it be thought that one with a DA in Bible and able to teach Bible could not use the best research tools? But, if one cannot use the languages, then how would one know what Behm means when he writes in TDNT 4:71 in Greek characters, "morphe theou huparchon corresponds exactly to te doxe he eichon pro tou ton kosmon para soi" ?? But if one cannot read this, how is TDNT to be well-utilized? But TDNT is the best Greek lexicon! This is NOT, good friend North, DTS PhD stuff, you rate it too highly ; this is merely Western MDiv or MA stuff! Duh? is not the answer!

Suppose one commentary says that pastors and teachers are one office in Ephesians 4 because only the first noun is articulated and the substantives are joined by 'kai.' But suppose a second commentary says that rule oft is not followed by Paul. So two offices are meant! What is the hapless unequipped to do? Count the opining of English only commentaries and teach it according to the majority opinion? A joke! But that, a simple exegetical research project, yet requires a smattering of Greek. Duh? is not the answer!

Similarly, suppose one is in the mood to interact with some moderately serious research literature on what one perceives, whether correctly or not, to be cultism and so wishes more depth than Walter Martin. He happens to land on my Pal Ed's "The New World Translation and Christologically Significant Article-Substantive-Kaiv-Substantive Constructions.

There the hapless unprepared to understand must grasp what a TSKS construction is. Friend North, this is not DTS PhD stuff buleeve me ; this is DTS ThM -masters- stuff! You are aiming much, much too low! Duh? is not the answer!

Then, how would the unprepared respond to Burk's argument that as the articular infinitive is a function marker in Philippians 2:6 isa cannot be the equivalent of morphe? Simple exegetics at the MDiv level. You aim far too low! Duh? is not the answer!

Or speaking more of interacting with research literature on Bible themes, here's a piece right on target: Is Dahms in his article 'The Johannine Use of Monogenes Reconsidered' in NT Studies, vol 29, 222-232, correct that the Greek translation of the Hebrew OT always connects a birthing to that adjective? How will the unprepared research that? By asking another prof at the school a question?

Is that what a DA prepares one to do, simply ask the PhD questions like, "Oh, and by the way, Dr Betterprepared, just what Hebrew word does monegenes translate, hmmmm......??" My, My! Ever heard of Yalad? Duh? is not the answer!

The goal is to learn, not to get an easy doc.

Friend North, I don't care whether the NCA accredits the TTS DA or not if what it produces is 'duh?' That is not the answer!

 

Bill,

You get too easily wrapped around the axle. Take some high blood pressure medication and relax.....ohm........ohm...........

You are expecting too much from the DA program and maybe what it is not designed to do. Did it claim to make you an expert in biblical languages or to be the equivalent of a ThD program??

I see Trinity's program (as I said) as like Capella, Union Insitute, etc. It is like trying to dissect Steve Levicoff's doctorate in Religion and Law from Union Institute and compare it with a law degree or a PhD in Religion. I doubt it would make it in either category. Does not mean he did not earn a legit doctorate in Relgion and Law Similarly someone demanding a *taught* ThD could sit down and rip apart a research DTh as substandard (from UNIZUL or elsewhere). Think about it....if one were to apply the same standards. Hmmmmm.

North (not enrolled in Trinity)

 

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North

You misunderstand me ; I am not excited. I keep saying may they all be blessed! I said, let's agree to disagree? Why do you keep biting at my heels to arouse me and only answer my counters with your , 'I see Trinity's program like Union Institute'? What does that prove? Go where you will; I don't care!

But first, answer my argument above. Tell me why a DA in Bible should not be able to research Biblical texts in a scholarly way, at master's level, in the manner exemplified above in order to teach Bible?

Also, if you wish to attempt to rip apart my Unizul thesis, then I'll mention some points and you, or whoever, can try to do that. It is not just the three ZA profs from three ZA universities who read it, but a local prof with his own DTS PhD. He cannot rip it apart because it answers the arguments of the best PhDs/thDs on the subject in the best literature! But maybe you can want to try, North? HMMMM......?

 

So-called DA, Bill. I wish somebody could tell me how TTS offers a DA without any pedagogical training and/or supervised teaching as part of the degree requirements. Just one more lie, that's all...

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Here's a prediction from Janko the Prophet.

The folks who will most assiduously claim that accreditation of TTS should silence all criticism of TTS will be folks who, in the past and present, have finagled accreditation issues in their own schooling, promoted unaccredited schools (sometimes even mills), and/or spread the lie that everybody here is "RA or no way".

It won't be honorable people like North or Hartel.

 

just something about me ; even when I look for no fight, they come

 

Yeah, I know. I get the mind readers.

 

I like you Bill but you do enjoy arguing and actively seek it out. This is not the first time you then come back and say "Oh little ole me minding my business".

Nonetheless, I am willing to agree to disagree. Trinity will likely get RA as NCU did before it. Folks can always criticize something and that is fair but my points are valid. Levicoff's UIU doctorate in Law & Relgigion could not stand up to the same scrutiny and neither could your DTh using your same line of reasoning.

Your Trinity fetish is amusing. I know based on your posts here that you were disappointed that your efforts with the NCA were for nought but frankly you are beating a dead horse to death.

Please understand......I think Levicoff's PhD is legit and earned and a wonderful achievement. When you earn your DTh is will also be a wonderful equivalent of accredited doctorate. UNIZUL has terrific faculty and is a fine institution.

Hang in there Bill. I am sure you must have a Dr. Hogg voodoo doll in your office and spend your spare time sticking pins in it.

North

 

Hi Bill:

Their DA still ain't a real doctor of arts degree, but just a terminology-ripoff. Master's Divinity School is just a rube-ripoff. And honor but a fleeting thought, and integrity but a name.

My phrase from another thread bears wider currency (IISSM): futures trading in accreditation.

Real scholars don't need to do that. For that matter, people able to mount a reasoned defence of an honorable and competent unaccredited program (a rare bird, but it don't quack) don't need to do that.

And anybody that thinks that TTS is on the same moral level as the University of Zululand--or the same academic level, FWIW--knows nothing of the struggles of faculty and students there to accomplish something under the horrible constraints of apartheid, let alone of the university's tenacity in making a place for itself in the "new" South Africa. I'm sure that there are some decent folks teaching at TTS, but faculty like Song, Oosthuizen, and Loubser have 'em trounced utterly in terms of scholarly productivity and moral integrity. [I left your guy out so's not to be accused of special pleading, not for any invidious reason.] A far cry from the shell game on the banks of the O-hi-o regardless of whether the highest-profile shell gets accreditation or not.

This is a case of "RA? Still no way."

Nor have I a "fetish" about TTS, and have made it plain that I am not including honorable TTS students in my criticisms of the place. The use of ad hominem argument, however, is sad.