Tragic state of affairs at the US Southern border.

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by Lerner, Mar 29, 2021.

  1. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

  2. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    End the drug war so as to disempower the cartels that make so many people be desperate to flee their homes in the first place.
    Bill Huffman and Maniac Craniac like this.
  3. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    My morbid curiosity sometimes leads me to the wrong side of the internet. Most normal people might want to take my word on it that the extreme levels of brutality enacted by the Mexican drug cartels rivals that of ISIS. One difference I've noticed is that ISIS seems to act out of a callous sense of duty, wheras the cartels do it with a skip in their step and a twinkle in their eye. I don't know what makes such people, but the less fuel they get, the better. I also don't know what the ramifications would be for the universal legalizing of recreational drugs, but it's very hard to imagine it being worse than what's already happening.
    SteveFoerster likes this.
  4. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Experiences in Portugal and Switzerland suggest much more harm is done by prohibition than by the drugs themselves, and considering how bad for you some of them are, that's saying something.
  5. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    The border has been in crisis for as long as I have lived here. It used to infuriate me that NPR carefully informed me about what was happening in Western China but was silent during almost ALL of the incredible Drug Cartel shoot out 34 miles from my front porch. Cd. Juarez was the most murderous city outside an actual war zone in the world and much more dangerous than many cities actually AT war. NPR didn't care and their attitude reflected that of the U.S. government.

    The border hasn't been in crisis all my life in New Mexico, though. Things didn't start really heating up until the 1990s. Before that, there were few border controls. Your oral declaration was enough to cross and El Paso Juarez functioned as a single community. So what happened?

    Depends on who you ask. There are academics around here who say that the desperate immigrants were driven out of their work and homes by NAFTA and the flood of cheap imports of food and goods from the U.S. Others say no, NAFTA created tens of thousands of jobs in manufacturing that didn't exist before. True, the others reply, but those jobs pay starvation wages.

    Then there's the long horrible history, according to some, of the U.S. propping up brutal dictatorships in Central America to protect the property interests of major corporations. The effect was to create a small class of very wealthy people who left nothing for anyone else. Thus arose the drug cartels as the sole means of economic survival. Add the U.S. War on Drugs to keep the markets hot for their poison and you have organizations that cannot be controlled.

    But the threat of communism coming to Central America was real and had to be fought by any means, fair or foul. You can ask Reaganites about that I guess.

    I don't know what Biden should do any more than I knew what Trump should have done. The Border Wall continues to extend across the desert, ever higher and ever more expensive but no wall will stop the truly desperate. It's an ugly thing, too, and the sight of it makes me sick.

    But I’ll tell you all this. The U.S. fertility rate is well below replacement. Our future depends on immigrants, young immigrants and families. Maybe we need to think about our long term future and see these people as our national salvation rather than a national problem.

    Thats what I think, anyway.
    SteveFoerster likes this.
  6. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Reducing or reorganizing drug laws would be a rather risky thing to do politically in USA. They are trying other things in other country that may have some merit.

    Inside Denmark's legal 'drug consumption rooms'

    I'm not saying this might be a solution to the cartel problems or the gangs running rampant in central America countries that are causing the border problems right now. I'm not sure what to do about that but trying to address the problem in Central America would seem to me to be the best approach. The only thing I'm sure of is that building a stupid wall on the border is not going to accomplish anything except make a few folks in this country feel better.
  7. Vonnegut

    Vonnegut Well-Known Member

    It’s crazy what’s going on with the people who used to be in the pot game in states where it’s now decriminalized. Organized criminal groups, hardened gangsters, old school hippies, etc. are being pushed out of the market by young venture capitalists and entrepreneurs with business licenses, zoning permits, biologists/botanists on staff, and lawyers.

    Not a fan of any drug use, but the results of our failed attempt at a drug war speak for themselves.
    SteveFoerster likes this.
  8. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    The concern and speculation on my side is that it may become that many of US cities be ruled by the cartels. Sovereignty of the US will be a thing of the past. Seing ages of the young man coming to this country, long term it can bring underground cartel government.
    What are the possibilities that a type of cartel government that may become as strong as they are in Mexico ruling US cities? Perhaps all of the Americas (south, central north) will become states of rival cartels?
    I heard that they are making $10 to $14 mil/day since this flow started.
    I agree with you Bill partly that our future will depend on legal immigration. But I don't think this is going to depend on it. We have young generations of Americans who are struggling to rent an apartment and get jobs so why do they need influx of more competitive work force? Young adults ages 20 to 30 need to move out of states if they want to try to live on their own or start families. So why would California need that. People are having serious issues with homeliness crowded hospitals etc?
  9. SpoonyNix

    SpoonyNix Active Member

    On both sides of the border- End the War On Some Drugs, increased enforcement of immigration laws, stricter visa/residency/citizenship qualifications, allow citizenry to discriminate for any reason.
  10. SweetSecret

    SweetSecret New Member

    This is extremely true.

    That is being looked at where I am at. The problem though is that drug trafficking is so heavily linked in with human trafficking which puts people at risk for assault and homicide. Many people get addicted and have to do things they would not otherwise do (i.e. working the streets) because they have to earn a certain amount of money to keep up with what many believe is an increasing drug tolerance level. The organization I am with has to Narcan people pretty much every week and often numerous times per day. An alternative would be to make Suboxone and Methadone more accessible, but it still has to be managed and often times people do not like feeling they are being managed or accountable to anyone. Additionally, especially with women, people talk about how Suboxone and Methadone can lead to weight gain. Even if that could also be managed, it's more than most people want to deal with. Here in the state I am in, there is a medical transport system that will pick people up from wherever they are and take them to get Suboxone or Methadone... but it's rare for people to make the choice to get on either one. Some people go years or decades with addiction and have no desire to change. On the other hand, I have listened to women cry because they understand that they are able to be trafficked because of their addiction (which for some was forced upon them). I do not think there is an easy solution to all of this other than to say that I think we need better financial education starting from an early age, more affordable housing, and more economic development with equal opportunities to de-incentivize trafficking of both substances and people. Safe use sites might be the a partial solution, but long-term it is not the final solution.

    On another note, legalized cannabis has come up. I have had people I was close with work in that industry in various capacities including executives. Legalizing something does not suddenly wipe out the illegal trade of it. All the rules and regulations push the price of legal cannabis up, so many people still purchase illegal cannabis due to the cost difference. Additionally, some people do not like going to the stores and prefer to have it delivered. Now, if medical insurance decided to suddenly cover cannabis, at the same time doctors gave prescriptions for it out like candy, and 24hr delivery services were available... I suspect illegal cannabis would be pretty much eradicated.
  11. Vonnegut

    Vonnegut Well-Known Member

    Fear grips a lot of people and is always abundant when large immigration is occurring. People get terrified and start calling out against those young people trying to better themselves. We can't allow immigrants from Ireland, Italy, Spain, Turkey, France, Lebanon, China, Japan, Russia, Albania, Vietnam, Nigeria, Mongolia, and Mexico... because they all potentially have gangsters among them! Every ethic or nationality has criminals in their society, as do we, we can't legislate and live out of fear though. We have a robust system of government and while it may not be perfect and may eventually fall as Rome did, our society and judicial system are quite resilient against organized crime and has continually demonstrated that over the years. As mentioned above, the light of legal pot dispensaries has had the opposite effect of criminals continuing to make a fortune off of that trade. Cartel style organizations can't thrive in that environment, RICO is too effective for them to scale up legal operations or to co-mingle the operations. We're seeing that play out across the nation, in the states that have created effective new laws with dispensaries.
  12. Vonnegut

    Vonnegut Well-Known Member

    Absolutely agree, neither safe sites or legalization are anything but partial solutions. The original Portugal model which found success, required that the judicial costs of criminalization be transferred entirely to social services; counseling, housing, education, etc. All of the successful models that have found equivalent success, have followed a similar methodology. We have reportedly spent a Trillion dollars on a War on Drugs and there's not a person who can say it's been a success, it's time for a change in strategy. Especially when we start realizing that drug use is often a symptom of other ailments; hopelessness, unfulfilled human needs, untreated mental health, etc. Note: Tossing the links in there for others. With what you've stated as your work background, I'm sure you're far more familiar with that information.
  13. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Monday's announcement by U.S. Customs and Border Protection that two Yemeni nationals on a terrorist watchlist have been apprehended near the U.S/.Mexico border in recent months. The men--who are also on a no-fly list--were arrested in two separate incidents near the Calexico border crossing in Southern California. Yemen, their country of origin, is home to the Iran-backed Houthi rebels as well as an active branch of the terror group Al Qaeda. Is America's porous southern border becoming a major national security threat?
  14. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    The gratuitous mention of Iran just sounds so desperate, especially when the real security threat is U.S. military support for the Saudi-instigated war atrocities in Yemen.

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