The little college with 70k+ students

It's only debated by those connected to Ashford. It's readily apparent to everyone else.

Go for it. Just do one other thing: make student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy (like every other kind of loan).

This approach would make lending contingent on market forces, rather than specific types of accreditation. It would force lenders to carefully assess the potential risk of default whenever they issued a student loan. To do this, the lenders would themselves would have to evaluate the characteristics of the institution, and the proposed degree being pursued. Accreditation would probably be one of the factors that they considered, but not the only one. It's possible, for example, that an NA degree in IT might be considered a safer loan than an RA degree in Theater.

Might this discourage lending to schools with low selectivity and high default rates? Yes.

Does this bother me? No.

 

CalDog I think you and I found something we agree on, marketplace risk should be reintroduced by placing federally backed loans under the jurisdiction of the bankruptcy courts. I have no idea why they were ever itemized as being "special" in debt obligation in the first place other than being viewed or at least treated as an entitlement, which it most certainly is not.

I also have no problem with selective enrollment, though I agree with the spirit of open enrollment. I can see the pros and cons to both sides of the coin but the fact of the matter is that post secondary education is a privilege and not a right but the red blooded American in me thinks that everyone should at least be given an opportunity if they want it.

As for accreditation buying only being debatable among those affiliated with Ashford, what about for profit schools that change ownership, or go from public to private (such as through majority buyout ala TUI) or private to public (ala American Intercontinental)? These would all change the school as legal entities. What about schools who go from non-profit to profit (ala TUI and many others)? Would that be accreditation buying? I’m really not seeing where Bridgepoint’s actions were especially egregious to warrant such passion from those “people who care about the integrity of the regional accreditation process”. It smacks of intellectual dishonesty unless you feel equally as passionate about any of the other scenarios mentioned above and if you do, then it’s not just limited to those who are “connected to Ashford”.

As an aside I should mention that I do not and have not ever worked for Bridgepoint or Ashford. I’m an alumni with a regionally accredited degree and that will not change whether the school goes under or not. Other than that I have no skin in the game but I am dismayed by people assuming the moral high ground where there exists none in what amounts to a good old fashioned fight about money.

 

Not all DETC schools choose to participate in Title IV, but Aspen does.

Summer Contact

 

The folks that are running Ashford were running UOPHX before so I am sure they are following ALL of the rules they will to reach accreditation. They are no more/less legit than NCU, UOPHX, GCU, etc. GCU has followed a "similar" example and they continue to be accredited with no issues.

This lends to my example, folks WANT the best of both worlds, the ease of DL and the reputation gained from a long term, brick and mortar school.

The insanity is that EVERY small / struggling B&M is not already competing (and many of them HAVE opened up their doors to DL)

I would say the Masters level market is saturated...I am HOPING the DL Doctorate market will soon have the same amount of offerings as say getting a MS in Accounting. (MBA.. you cannot throw a stick without hitting 2-3 online MBA programs on the way down)

 

As mentioned in the Wikipedia article the audit concentrated on four points, Ashford failed all four. News reports about the audit are linked to in that article, so that would be a good place to look. I wonder how many students were legally eligible for refunds, but Ashford simply withheld the money. I haven't gotten a chance to see your edits, but I appreciate your looking at the Wikipedia article.

I think it's worth noting in this thread this InsideHigherEd article. Harkin's quote is nicely put into context there:

 

Ashford University has on their management staff an MBA from the University of Phoenix and a couple other UofP people (I think, it's been a while since I last looked). Either way there are fundamental differences in what UofP did and how Ashford is being run. I spoke to Dr. Clugston of Bridgepoint at length a year or two ago. Additionally Ashford has several more traditionally oriented education staff that I met who are no less passionate about their on campus programs than I met at Southwestern College (which is saying a lot).

In addition to all of the stuff Ashford does for Clinton Iowa I was very surprised to find so many kids going to school for free by maintaining a high GPA. I also found that those who were earning less than 4.0 GPAs were getting partial scholarships and the amounts were not insubstantial. Now of course that does not apply to online students but I like to know that some of my tuition money is helping out those on campus students graduate with little or no debt, especially since I am a working professional and they are all fresh out of high school. It's good to see academically based scholarships being given in this time when every other school is cutting back (except for of course the athletic programs at the big state schools).

Really more small private and state schools should be studying the Ashford University business and academic models and more or less follow suit. Going from paying $5,000 per student to $700 per student without compromising the quality of education provided is a substantial milestone in education, not an indicator of something wrong as Mr. Harkin would like us to believe. The sad fact is some people cannot get it through their thick skulls that money in education directly corresponds to academic success. No country on this planet spends more money on education than the U.S. yet we continually slide backwards. I think a lot of this has to do with our mentality that "this is the way it needs to be done because that's how we've always done it". It's time for us to move on and embrace innovation and it is my hope Ashford and Bridgepoint emerge from this stronger and become a beacon of innovation.

Like it or not University of Phoenix changed higher education's entire paradigm. They made education much more accessible to professionals and full time students alike. They were pioneers in distance education in embracing the internet, etc. Of course the school has flaws and their accessibility and recruitment practices have taken a black eye before from people acting inappropriately but for all their faults, they have done more good than not. That said I really don't see Ashford and UofP in the same boat ethically.

 

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

 

It's much easier to keep accreditation than it is to lose it. It takes forever for them to revoke accreditation. This isn't the first for-profit purchase of accreditation. Grand Canyon University is another example, and there are many others. The accrediting agency did the right thing when it came to tiny Dana College in Nebraska. A for-profit was all set to turn it into a distance factory but the agency refused to approve it.

The right thing to do when a small college is failing is not to make a last gasp effort to live by selling out to a for-profit that is going to create a distance factory, but to die so that other small colleges that are just making it can get stronger.

 

Senate Panel Probes Massive Growth At Tiny Iowa College

Senate Panel Probes Massive Growth At Tiny Iowa College

 

Have you ever seen Senator Harkin walk after one of these panel hearings?

 

Quite predictable, more political grandstanding…

 

I disagree, but then I do not see why a non-profit college cannot be just as competitive. You are right about one thing, nonprofit schools in that they should not wait until the last second and make a last ditch effort at survival, they should instead look around and see what is working in the industry as a whole and what is not. The biggest problem for high education in the U.S. is that the paradigm in higher learning has changed but so few wish to accept that and make the changes necessary to survive and thrive. If non-profit schools were really living up to their potential, for profits would be marginalized in their ability to grab new market share and we wouldn't be having this conversation now. If nonprofit schools were really living up to their potential it would be they and not the for profits that would be driving innovation in accessibility to getting an education. The fact is for profit schools are making a killing because there is a market demand for their services that is not being met elsewhere. The key to free market success is being willing to meet demand where other cannot or will not meet.

Aside from the money in this debate there is also protectionism thing happening. The trouble is the rest of the world isn't going to wait for us anymore (assuming they ever did). Instead we are at risk of being marginalized in innovation and as a global competency center globally. India and China are starting to build their educational infrastructure without all the baggage we insist on dragging along.

 

I thought this might be interesting. The thing I love about financial guys is they tend to remove the political BS and moral dilemas from the facts as they are. And personally, I think there's money to be made here

 

I'm just amazed by the sheer number of online undergraduate majors that are on offer from Ashford (52, to be exact!). I mean, seriously, is this a record number of majors for an online school (in the US)?

Anyway, the selection includes a number of majors that are hard to fine elsewhere (via distance learning), including: Applied Linguistics (MC!!!), Cultural Anthropology, Gerontology, Health Marketing & Communication, Military Studies, Operations Management & Analysis and Sustainable Enterprise Management. This small sampling should give you an idea of the depth and breadth of their options. Now of course, this says nothing of the quality (or lack thereof) of the courses that make up these majors to say nothing of the school overall. Certainly what I have read in the linked article is troubling. Also, I tried to chat with one of the online advisers, and that was a disaster (couldn't even answer a simple question).

The biggest issue for me (other than what has already been discussed) is the $1290 "Technology Services Fee" which, according to Ashford "provides the student with initial configuration setup to University systems such as the online learning platform and other academic support systems". Seriously? $1290 to create a user account for the student and send out links? WTF?!

 

I have seen a technology fee applied to each course. For Bellevue I think it was around $50 per course or $600 total, for my local community college I had to pay $75 per course (or $25 per credit in IT courses) which for an associates degree would have been $1,500 overall (assuming a 20 course associates degree). So I don't think the fee is all that outrageous, though I don't think they should charge the whole thing up front, it should be traditionally applied on a per course basis like most schools do it. That being said I wonder if it's up front to build some kind of incentive if they "waive" it if you "act now".

One thing I do hate about for profit schools is when they get pushy trying to get someone to enroll. That was not my experience at Ashford but I have heard from a few people since I graduated who felt they were being pushed. Open enrollment is one thing, pushing someone to enroll is something entirely different. If there is one thing that I do hope comes from all this political grandstanding and BS that's happening in higher education it is that for profit schools cut the crap on the hard sales tactics and be at least a little more selective in enrolling students. Heck even requiring a simple 500 word essay on your favorite kind of cheese or your favorite band would be something.

Non-profit schools can be the same way though so I'm not just putting this squarely on Ashford. I was hounded to the ends of the earth by Boston University Online and California University of Pennsylvania (2 schools I looked at years ago). So the practice is done on both sides of the profit sector.

Edited to note: Bellevue has a term based fee of $50. If you take more than 1 course per term the overall cost will be reduced. I also did a search at UMUC for their fee schedule since I recall they had one and it is capped at $312 per year, but for a 4 year degree that's still $1,236 overall. So even though Ashford isn't way out of line, I don't think they should collect that fee upfront just as a good business practice.