Suspect Credentials and Phony Degrees in the Church

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Thomas D. Schwartz, Jan 25, 2005.

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  1. Thomas D. Schwartz

    Thomas D. Schwartz New Member

    The following thought-provoking material by Bill Alnor is taken from the August 2004 edition of "The Christian Sentinel," which you can find at this link:

    http://www.cultlink.com/news/aug_2004_sentinel_eupdate.htm.

    A scourge of suspect credentials and phony degrees is sweeping through the church. It has become rampant within evangelicalism, and especially within the Pentecostal and charismatic traditions. According to Christian Sentinel publisher Bill Alnor, evidence of this is abundant. One can open their latest copy of Charisma magazine and check the upcoming conferences splashed across its pages and note the names of many leaders calling themselves doctors. However, many do not hold earned degrees. Charisma along with many other publications, have a long time practice of selling ad space to questionable organizations in the degree and credential selling business, including even ministry ordinations for sale.

    Additionally, Alnor notes, walk into a Christian bookstore, especially one carrying books from charismatic/Pentecostal writers and check out the titles. It turns out that many of the Christian authors claiming to be "doctors," hold no doctoral degree (such as a Ph.D., Th.D. D.Min., Ed.D., etc.) from a regionally accredited university at all. Some of these "doctors" have not even attended a day of college. Others have not completed a two-year's associate's degree or a four-year bachelor's degree.

    These "Christian" leaders are deceptive and are knowingly bearing false witness. "They know what they are doing; they insist on calling themselves `doctors' to imply scholarship and professional credibility," Alnor said. "Some of them also know what the truth often is: they are not capable of doing doctoral work even if they were admitted into a legitimate doctoral program. They are just blowhards who puff themselves up, trying to impress their audiences."

    Of course, self-aggrandizing behavior similar to this is denounced in Scripture, Alnor said. We are challenged to be humble servants, even "slaves of Christ." Paul warns us to not think of ourselves more highly than we ought, and Jesus denounced the self-promoting behavior of the doctors of the law and the scribes repeatedly in the gospels, with one of his most stunning rebukes located in Luke 20:46-47.

    Sadly, this has affected some of those involved in apologetics and discernment ministries, who are supposed to serve as the eyes of purity in doctrinal and moral issues within the church. Some very prominent apologists writing books do not have accredited doctorates, yet they are referred to as "doctors." On July 14 in a Southwest Radio Church broadcast dealing with apostasy in the church, Dr. Larry Spargimino exposed some of the facts about prominent apologist and author James White of Arizona. The show stated that White’s degree is from an "unaccredited correspondence school" -- the Columbia Evangelical Seminary that has "no library," "no curriculum committee," "no bookstore," and has "no course review procedures." The broadcast claimed that many of those holding phony degrees do so for "purely mercenary motivations." "Fake degrees are a betrayal of the public's trust.... These degrees aren't worth the paper they are printed on. You don't want someone with a fake degree working in Homeland security, teaching your children and designing your bridges." To listen to the broadcast go to http://www.swrc.com/broadcasts/2004/july.htm, click on July 14 and go to the very end of the broadcast.

    It is interesting to note that while White’s website (http://www.aomin.org) repeatedly lists his title as "Dr." James White (as he also identifies himself on his radio broadcast), White's evangelical publisher refuses to list him as "Dr." on one of his recent books. White has addressed this issue on his web site, defending his credentials and has privately corresponded with Bill Alnor about it some time ago. However, Alnor found his explanations to be woefully inadequate. Nevertheless, he is now publicly giving White a chance to respond, and he will reproduce White's answers in a future E-update without editing his response as long as White answers all the questions. Click here to see Bill's questions he has presented to White. Bill would also place on the record that he has a high esteem for much of White's work, particularly in the areas of the "King James Only" debate and "Roman Catholicism."

    The irony of it is that Noah Hutchings, the host of the regular Southwest Radio Church (SWRC) broadcast that blasted him on July 14, has made false, grandiose claims about himself. Hutchings, the president of the ministry that boasts of being the "watchman on the wall," claims the title of "pastor," but he also claims to be "Doctor" Hutchings. The "Dr." title is bestowed on him repeatedly throughout the ministry's website (http://www.swrc.com), and even graces the covers of some of his published books under the by-line "Dr. Noah Hutchings." Yet he is not a doctor and holds no earned graduate degrees at all. What makes it even more hypocritical is that on June 15, the day after his attack on White's educational credentials, Larry Spargimino publicly referred to Hutchings as "Dr." on the broadcast.

    Additionally, the SWRC carries many editorial products that make sensational and wild, false claims written by a slew of men and women with suspect doctorates and credentials. Frequently SWRC's daily broadcast features radio guests holding phony degrees. (Bill Alnor would also like to place on the record that he has no esteem for the ministry of Southwest Radio Church, which he deems to be untrustworthy and a waste of listener's contributions to keep on the air.)

    When Bill Alnor called Hutchings several weeks ago to discuss the issue Hutchings conceded that he holds no earned doctorate, but instead has a bachelor's degree in accounting from a university in Oklahoma. However, Hutchings said he holds two honorary doctorates from St. Charles School in California and American Christian University in Oklahoma City, both of which do not hold regional accreditation. Although Alnor did not check these claims out by press time, he has long noted that Hutchings is a long time veteran of dishonest reporting and sensationalism as reported his 1989 book, Soothsayers of the Second Advent. Alnor referred to the SWRC as "The National Enquirer of Christianity."
     
  2. I don't claim to be a bible scholar, but I know most members of the church have heard the scriptures.

    Judge not, lest ye be judged.

    Touch not thy anointed, do his profits no harm.

    Enough said!
     
  3. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    IMO, regional accreditation doesn't really apply to the religious sphere. Granted, if you want to teach religion at an RA school, then you'll have to have an RA MA or PhD. But religion is just different. Neither Jesus nor His disciples had regionally accredited degrees. LOL :eek: The Apostle Paul probably had the closest thing to a RA degree.

    Also, it does seem to be a bigger trend today to covet the title of "doctor" in religious circles. It seems to give one more credability. I don't remember religious people using the term "doctor" when I was a kid, but today, even religionists have become addicted to the prestige that is associated with educational titles. In fact, I think that some people would rather be introduced as doctor over the term reverend. :eek:
     
  4. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    These guys didn't have any degrees.

    I don't separate religion from other aspects of higher education. If a school wants to award degrees, it should be properly constituted and evaluated. If someone wants to claim a degree, getting one from a religious school shouldn't provide a "pass" on the degree mill question.

    A degree represents the mastery of a prescribed body of knowledge commensurate with the award of that degree. There is no reason religion should be treated any differently than any other academic pursuit.

    Requiring religious schools to submit to the same controls as other schools isn't a violation of their right to pursue their religion. We're not talking about religion, we're talking about education.

    Just as one cannot hide behind religion to commit other crimes, it should not mask degree-related fraudulent activities. "C'mon, yer honor, robbing liquor stores is part of my religious creed, man!" :rolleyes:

    I thought religion was supposed to provide values?
     
  5. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    Were the degrees honorary???? What is the criteria for a non-RA school to issue an honorary degree??? If an unaccredited religious school wants to issue an honorary doctorate, then what's the big hoopla???

    I'm speculating now... but I presume that they awarded honorary degrees because those people fell within some sort of doctrinal sphere that the schools embraced.

    As I sidenote, I have no idea who these people are.
     
  6. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member





    I agree completely with Rich.

    This is why we have TRACS and other recognized accrediting bodies.
     
  7. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    I don't know anything about religious accreditation, except that some religious schools are not RA, but are alledgedly good schools. I have no idea what TRACS and ATS stand for, except that it must have something to do with a professional accreditation at the religious level.
     
  8. jerryclick

    jerryclick New Member

    Many religious schools do not and will not seek accreditation, for any number of reasons. Among them we can include the Separation of Church and State issue, the fear among many church operated schools that the Accreditors will require something of them that is contrary to doctrine in order to get accredited. An example is the story that a Baptist school would have been required to offer classes in dancing! This is also an example of an Urban Myth.
    There is the common attitude that "We are teaching OUR Ministers, so don't tell us how to do it." This is wonderful, Spiritual and fine from their point of view. Religious schools range from RA to those that are wonderful and could probably be RA if they desired, to some that are below Terrible, and just want your check to clear. My feeling is that there should be separate nomenclature for degrees that are strictly religious in nature. I'm not sure what would do that, terms such as "Ministerial Doctorate" come to mind, but that sounds a little clumsy. How's this for a disclaimer:
    I have no idea what the quality of the courses offered may be, I just found this one through google, and X'ed out the name, but the honesty impressed me. "We teach our Ministers. Our church members and affiliated churches recognize it, and other denominations need not concern themselves" is my reading on it.
     
  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I guess this places Dr. Charles Stanley, prolific author and two-time president of the Southern Baptist Convention, in a questionable position. Dr. Stanley earned his only doctorate (ThD) from Luther Rice, long before LRS had any type of recognized accreditation. According the the librarian at LRS, Stanley's doctoral dissertation was a treatise on prayer.
     
  10. larryjf

    larryjf New Member

    It is interesting that Christians (both in the pews and at the pulpit) think so highly of titles.

    (ESV)

    Mat 23:6-8,10 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others. But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ.
    Mat 23:12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

    Maybe people in our "educated" society mistake education for authority??

    Mat 7:29 for he was teaching them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes. (the scribes being the "educated")

    Maybe if they didn't have a doctorate the congregation would ask "by what authority do you preach to us?" (Mat 21:23)

    Luk 11:46 And he said, "Woe to you lawyers also! For you load people with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers. (lawyers being the "doctors" of religous law)

    Sorry if i went off on a bit of a tangent - any excuse to preach the word i jump on. :D
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2005
  11. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    I think Ray made a funny...
     
  12. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    It is ironic that academia appropriated nearly all of its marks of authority (the priestly robes, the mortarboard, the conferring of the degree title from faculty to student, etc.) from the church. Originally, academic authority and titles were awarded by virtue of ecclesiastical authority. How funny it is that religious leaders find the necessity to seek after man's imitation of the church.

    Since religion has become big buisiness for many, "suspect credentials and phony degrees" are, unfortunately, not uncommon. I see little difference between a John Grey (author of "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus") who uses his unaccredited PhD to his advantage and a James White, whose unaccredited ThD also allows him to use the title "doctor". This has been discussed elsewhere, but Walter Martin, the grandfather of so-called "counter-cult apologetics" regularly claimed that his three unaccredited degrees (including his doctorate) were accredited.

    After going to a lecture where he found his church attacked by a so-called "PhD expert", Robert Brown, a Mormon, decided to research the academic credentials of a number of professional anti-Mormons. He found blantant acts of academic fraud (e.g. the use of diploma mills and misrepresentations of degrees and ministerial credentials) and published a series of four books titled "And They Lie in Wait to Deceive".

    Certainly, religious figures are not the only ones guilty of academic fraud; however, there is a certain amount of insidiousness (and disappointment) when someone is supposedly preaching the Word of God but who bears false witness about himself.

    Tony
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2005
  13. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: Suspect Credentials and Phony Degrees in the Church

    Not really. For one, Luther Rice has since been accredited, shining a positive light on its pre-accredited days.

    Also, let's use Bill Dayson's paradigm: that unaccredited schools carry the burden of proving themselves. Luther Rice did that long ago. Graduates of Luther Rice have been able to get into accredited schools, Luther Rice degrees have enjoyed acceptance and respect, and the school itself is licensed in Florida, no mean feat. They are the exception, not the rule.
     
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Indeed, however, one should differentiate between those who hold substantive unaccredited doctorates (of which there are a few) and those who hold a purchased credential. The latter variety includes those who use the title ("Dr."), yet have never attempted or completed undergraduate studies or cannot construct a grammatically correct sentence. This is certainly a false witness. However, those who have completed an unaccredited doctoral program (substantive coursework, research doctorate, dissertation/thesis, etc.), after completing legitimate undergraduate and graduate degrees are not, IMO, bearing false witness. The degrees will certainly have limited utility, yet in the pastorate (in some traditions) this is not an issue. Charles Stanley would be such an example.
     
  15. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    I much agree with Rich.

    Frankly I'm weary of having Luther Rice preaccredited ThDs flounced across my logic scanner as evidence of the efficiency or utility of unaccredited docs. Recently on the Baptist Board discussion forum one , himself a DMin holder from LR who also has an RA PhD, stated that in former years LR would give ThDs for simply a compilation of pastoral sermons! It is my understanding that LR had to make significant changes to gain TRACS accreditation. That fact suggests that major deficits before existed at LR.

    The issue IS NOT : CAN it possibly happen that UA docs are given to people who equal grads of accredited doc programs in competence ?

    The issue is: CAN we expect UA doc programs will probably MAKE or REQUIRE those people to be the equals in competence of grads of accredited programs.

    If any claim the latter to be the case, then, I think evidence beyond just a few successful grads needs to be presented! Why should it be expected that CES or a preTRACS LR would require their docs grads to have competence equal to grads of accredited programs?

    Then follows the question : in the case of a White or Olford, indeed two very competent guys, did CES or LR REQUIRE or MAKE those grads to be the equals of grads of accredited programs OR did something quite distinct from that education make them so?

    Neither do I buy the logic that ministers should be able to claim whatever degrees they want since religion is excluded from state control. Control is not the issue ; the issue is respectability!

    In the case of ministers, they should have the respect of those outside the Church (1 Tim 3). If , therefore, ministers claim academic degrees, then IMO, those degrees should be such that those in academe ( if Rich will allow me to use him as example) recognize as being substantial and rigorous.

    But IMO ministers should also have the respect of theological academe-their own brethren. So , when ministers get docs from substandard institutions which have far less substance and require far less rigor than accredited ones, such ministers are claiming the VERY SAME credentials and qualifications as those who finished accredited programs requiring the normal expectations who struggled, and sweated , and spent themselves to finish. THAT IMO IS DECEIT! IT IS NOT HONEST! IT IS NOT CHRISTIAN!

    Neither is the issue that Moses or Jesus or Paul did not have doctorates. They did not claim such . These were inspired individuals (IMO). THAT is what gave them competence.

    But we are not! SO , if we feel led , we should do substantial and rigorous work to try to understand the inspiration of those . We should not try to take shortcuts which lack substance and/or rigor. The prize is IN the learning, NOT in the diploma!

    Substance and rigor are the adjectives that guide my evaluation of UA doc programs: Are such programs as substantial and rigorous as accredited ones?

    Then follows the question, NOT are White and Olford good guys, BUT are their docs good docs? To evaluate that question one must know whether or not what was required of them to earn those ThDs is the genuine equivalent of what is normally is required. That is the true academic question, not whether White and Olford are successes.

    Did they do a dissertation which was evaluated by a committee of qualified professors holding earned accredited doctorates in the area of the dissertation and were these dissertations judged to genuinely contribute to the knowledge of the field of study at the level of true doctoral research? THAT is the criterion by which the degrees of a White or an Olford should be measure---NOT their later successes.
     
  16. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    I much agree with Rich.

    Frankly I'm weary of having Luther Rice preaccredited ThDs flounced across my logic scanner as evidence of the efficiency or utility of unaccredited docs. Recently on the Baptist Board discussion forum one , himself a DMin holder from LR who also has an RA PhD, stated that in former years LR would give ThDs for simply a compilation of pastoral sermons! It is my understanding that LR had to make significant changes to gain TRACS accreditation. That fact suggests that major deficits before existed at LR.

    The issue IS NOT : CAN it possibly happen that UA docs are given to people who equal grads of accredited doc programs in competence ?

    The issue is: CAN we expect UA doc programs will probably MAKE or REQUIRE those people to be the equals in competence of grads of accredited programs.

    If any claim the latter to be the case, then, I think evidence beyond just a few successful grads needs to be presented! Why should it be expected that CES or a preTRACS LR would require their docs grads to have competence equal to grads of accredited programs?

    Then follows the question : in the case of a White or Olford, indeed two very competent guys, did CES or LR REQUIRE or MAKE those grads to be the equals of grads of accredited programs OR did something quite distinct from that education make them so?

    Neither do I buy the logic that ministers should be able to claim whatever degrees they want since religion is excluded from state control. Control is not the issue ; the issue is respectability!

    In the case of ministers, they should have the respect of those outside the Church (1 Tim 3). If , therefore, ministers claim academic degrees, then IMO, those degrees should be such that those in academe ( if Rich will allow me to use him as example) recognize as being substantial and rigorous.

    But IMO ministers should also have the respect of theological academe-their own brethren. So , when ministers get docs from substandard institutions which have far less substance and require far less rigor than accredited ones, such ministers are claiming the VERY SAME credentials and qualifications as those who finished accredited programs requiring the normal expectations who struggled, and sweated , and spent themselves to finish. THAT IMO IS DECEIT! IT IS NOT HONEST! IT IS NOT CHRISTIAN!

    Neither is the issue that Moses or Jesus or Paul did not have doctorates. They did not claim such . These were inspired individuals (IMO). THAT is what gave them competence.

    But we are not! SO , if we feel led , we should do substantial and rigorous work to try to understand the inspiration of those . We should not try to take shortcuts which lack substance and/or rigor. The prize is IN the learning, NOT in the diploma!

    Substance and rigor are the adjectives that guide my evaluation of UA doc programs: Are such programs as substantial and rigorous as accredited ones?

    Then follows the question, NOT are White and Olford good guys, BUT are their docs good docs? To evaluate that question one must know whether or not what was required of them to earn those ThDs is the genuine equivalent of what is normally is required. That is the true academic question, not whether White and Olford are successes.

    Did they do a dissertation which was evaluated by a committee of qualified professors holding earned accredited doctorates in the area of the dissertation and were these dissertations judged to genuinely contribute to the knowledge of the field of study at the level of true doctoral research? THAT is the criterion by which the degrees of a White or an Olford should be measure---NOT their later successes.
     
  17. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    I much agree with Rich.

    Frankly I'm weary of having Luther Rice preaccredited ThDs flounced across my logic scanner as evidence of the efficiency or utility of unaccredited docs. Recently on the Baptist Board discussion forum one , himself a DMin holder from LR who also has an RA PhD, stated that in former years LR would give ThDs for simply a compilation of pastoral sermons! It is my understanding that LR had to make significant changes to gain TRACS accreditation. That fact suggests that major deficits before existed at LR.

    The issue IS NOT : CAN it possibly happen that UA docs are given to people who equal grads of accredited doc programs in competence ?

    The issue is: CAN we expect UA doc programs will probably MAKE or REQUIRE those people to be the equals in competence of grads of accredited programs.

    If any claim the latter to be the case, then, I think evidence beyond just a few successful grads needs to be presented! Why should it be expected that CES or a preTRACS LR would require their docs grads to have competence equal to grads of accredited programs?

    Then follows the question : in the case of a White or Olford, indeed two very competent guys, did CES or LR REQUIRE or MAKE those grads to be the equals of grads of accredited programs OR did something quite distinct from that education make them so?

    Neither do I buy the logic that ministers should be able to claim whatever degrees they want since religion is excluded from state control. Control is not the issue ; the issue is respectability!

    In the case of ministers, they should have the respect of those outside the Church (1 Tim 3). If , therefore, ministers claim academic degrees, then IMO, those degrees should be such that those in academe ( if Rich will allow me to use him as example) recognize as being substantial and rigorous.

    But IMO ministers should also have the respect of theological academe-their own brethren. So , when ministers get docs from substandard institutions which have far less substance and require far less rigor than accredited ones, such ministers are claiming the VERY SAME credentials and qualifications as those who finished accredited programs requiring the normal expectations who struggled, and sweated , and spent themselves to finish. THAT IMO IS DECEIT! IT IS NOT HONEST! IT IS NOT CHRISTIAN!

    Neither is the issue that Moses or Jesus or Paul did not have doctorates. They did not claim such . These were inspired individuals (IMO). THAT is what gave them competence.

    But we are not! SO , if we feel led , we should do substantial and rigorous work to try to understand the inspiration of those . We should not try to take shortcuts which lack substance and/or rigor. The prize is IN the learning, NOT in the diploma!

    Substance and rigor are the adjectives that guide my evaluation of UA doc programs: Are such programs as substantial and rigorous as accredited ones?

    Then follows the question, NOT are White and Olford good guys, BUT are their docs good docs? To evaluate that question one must know whether or not what was required of them to earn those ThDs is the genuine equivalent of what is normally is required. That is the true academic question, not whether White and Olford are successes.

    Did they do a dissertation which was evaluated by a committee of qualified professors holding earned accredited doctorates in the area of the dissertation and were these dissertations judged to genuinely contribute to the knowledge of the field of study at the level of true doctoral research? THAT is the criterion by which the degrees of a White or an Olford should be measure---NOT their later successes.
     
  18. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    I much agree with Rich.

    Frankly I'm weary of having Luther Rice preaccredited ThDs flounced across my logic scanner as evidence of the efficiency or utility of unaccredited docs. Recently on the Baptist Board discussion forum one , himself a DMin holder from LR who also has an RA PhD, stated that in former years LR would give ThDs for simply a compilation of pastoral sermons! It is my understanding that LR had to make significant changes to gain TRACS accreditation. That fact suggests that major deficits before existed at LR.

    The issue IS NOT : CAN it possibly happen that UA docs are given to people who equal grads of accredited doc programs in competence ?

    The issue is: CAN we expect UA doc programs will probably MAKE or REQUIRE those people to be the equals in competence of grads of accredited programs.

    If any claim the latter to be the case, then, I think evidence beyond just a few successful grads needs to be presented! Why should it be expected that CES or a preTRACS LR would require their docs grads to have competence equal to grads of accredited programs?

    Then follows the question : in the case of a White or Olford, indeed two very competent guys, did CES or LR REQUIRE or MAKE those grads to be the equals of grads of accredited programs OR did something quite distinct from that education make them so?

    Neither do I buy the logic that ministers should be able to claim whatever degrees they want since religion is excluded from state control. Control is not the issue ; the issue is respectability!

    In the case of ministers, they should have the respect of those outside the Church (1 Tim 3). If , therefore, ministers claim academic degrees, then IMO, those degrees should be such that those in academe ( if Rich will allow me to use him as example) recognize as being substantial and rigorous.

    But IMO ministers should also have the resp
     
  19. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    I much agree with Rich.

    Frankly I'm weary of having Luther Rice preaccredited ThDs flounced across my logic scanner as evidence of the efficiency or utility of unaccredited docs. Recently on the Baptist Board discussion forum one , himself a DMin holder from LR who also has an RA PhD, stated that in former years LR would give ThDs for simply a compilation of pastoral sermons! It is my understanding that LR had to make significant changes to gain TRACS accreditation. That fact suggests that major deficits before existed at LR.

    The issue IS NOT : CAN it possibly happen that UA docs are given to people who equal grads of accredited doc programs in competence ?

    The issue is: CAN we expect UA doc programs will probably MAKE or REQUIRE those people to be the equals in competence of grads of accredited programs.

    If any claim the latter to be the case, then, I think evidence beyond just a few successful grads needs to be presented! Why should it be expected that CES or a preTRACS LR would require their docs grads to have competence equal to grads of accredited programs?

    Then follows the question : in the case of a White or Olford, indeed two very competent guys, did CES or LR REQUIRE or MAKE those grads to be the equals of grads of accredited programs OR did something quite distinct from that education make them so?

    Neither do I buy the logic that ministers should be able to claim whatever degrees they want since religion is excluded from state control. Control is not the issue ; the issue is respectability!

    In the case of ministers, they should have the respect of those outside the Church (1 Tim 3). If , therefore, ministers claim academic degrees, then IMO, those degrees should be such that those in academe ( if Rich will allow me to use him as example) recognize as being substantial and rigorous.

    But IMO ministers should also have
     
  20. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    I much agree with Rich.

    Frankly I'm weary of having Luther Rice preaccredited ThDs flounced across my logic scanner as evidence of the efficiency or utility of unaccredited docs. Recently on the Baptist Board discussion forum one , himself a DMin holder from LR who also has an RA PhD, stated that in former years LR would give ThDs for simply a compilation of pastoral sermons! It is my understanding that LR had to make significant changes to gain TRACS accreditation. That fact suggests that major deficits before existed at LR.

    The issue IS NOT : CAN it possibly happen that UA docs are given to people who equal grads of accredited doc programs in competence ?

    The issue is: CAN we expect UA doc programs will probably MAKE or REQUIRE those people to be the equals in competence of grads of accredited programs.

    If any claim the latter to be the case, then, I think evidence beyond just a few successful grads needs to be presented! Why should it be expected that CES or a preTRACS LR would require their docs grads to have competence equal to grads of accredited programs?

    Then follows the question : in the case of a White or Olford, indeed two very competent guys, did CES or LR REQUIRE or MAKE those grads to be the equals of grads of accredited programs OR did something quite distinct from that education make them so?

    Neither do I buy the logic that ministers should be able to claim whatever degrees they want since religion is excluded from state control. Control is not the issue ; the issue is respectability!

    In the case of ministers, they should have the respect of those outside the Church (1 Tim 3). If , therefore, ministers claim academic degrees, then IMO, those degrees should be such that those in academe ( if Rich will allow me to use him as example) recognize as being substantial and rigorous.

    But IMO ministers should also have the respect of theological academe-their own brethren. So , when ministers get docs from substandard institutions which have far less substance and require far less rigor than accredited ones, such ministers are claiming the VERY SAME credentials and qualifications as those who finished accredited programs requiring the normal expectations who struggled, and sweated , and spent themselves to finish. THAT IMO IS DECEIT! IT IS NOT HONEST! IT IS NOT CHRISTIAN!

    Neither is the issue that Moses or Jesus or Paul did not have doctorates. They did not claim such . These were inspired individuals (IMO). THAT is what gave them competence.

    But we are not! SO , if we feel led , we should do substantial and rigorous work to try to understand the inspiration of those . We should not try to take shortcuts which lack substance and/or rigor. The prize is IN the learning, NOT in the diploma!

    Substance and rigor are the adjectives that guide my evaluation of UA doc programs: Are such programs as substantial and rigorous as accredited ones?

    Then follows the question, NOT are White and Olford good guys, BUT are their docs good docs? To evaluate that question one must know whether or not what was required of them to earn those ThDs is the genuine equivalent of what is normally is required. That is the true academic question, not whether White and Olford are successes.

    Did they do a dissertation which was evaluated by a committee of qualified professors holding earned accredited doctorates in the area of the dissertation and were these dissertations judged to genuinely contribute to the knowledge of the field of study at the level of true doctoral research? THAT is the criterion by which the degrees of a White or an Olford should be measure---NOT their later successes.
     

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