St Clements University

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by fnhayes, Feb 24, 2003.

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  1. fnhayes

    fnhayes New Member

    After making an enquiry a year or so ago, I seem to be hooked-on to St Clements University newsletter emailing list.
    I attempted a 'St Clements search' of Degreeinfo archives, but nothing popped up.
    The St Clements newsletter makes interesting reading and they have a new website up and running, but one that does not appear to show 'fees'.
    From their newsletter it seems that St Clements has a pretty high profile in some countries, holds regular meetings in London and in other parts of the world, but I know that my learned friend John Bear (he has visited NZ, is therefore a man of the world and one who has experienced 'paradise') rates them as 'a mill'.
    Anyone on the board with a St Clements degree or with any major involvement with St Clements? :)
     
  2. Ike

    Ike New Member

    I am not sure that Dr. Bear has called any school a degree mill but he may have described St. Clements University as non-wonderful and unaccredited. In my opinion, St. Clements University is a business outfit. A federal minister in Nigeria lost his job two years ago because he received his degree from St. Clements University.
     
  3. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: St Clements University

    I am. Editions 6 through 15 each have a chapter titled "Degree Mills." The schools are named. I think that meets the criteria.
     
  4. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    fnhayes: I attempted a 'St Clements search' of Degreeinfo archives, but nothing popped up.

    John Bear: I just did a search (Feb. 24), and found 18 threads, and many useful comments.

    There are just over 600 places listed in the "Degree Mills" chapter of the new Bears' Guide.

    Further: a reporter asked me an interesting question a few weeks ago: "Of the 250-or-so schools described in the "Unaccredited schools" chapter of Bears' Guide, how many would you move to the "Diploma mills" chapter if you had immunity from legal action."

    My answer, after reviewing the chapter: 172 of them. (No, a list will not be provided.)
     
  5. fnhayes

    fnhayes New Member

    Whilst I generally value John Bear's pearls of wisdom, some of his comments do seem to be unnecessarily subjective, particularly when it comes to providing 'hard facts' about degree mills, i.e. if 172 of the 250 unaccredited DL schools in his new edition are, in his opinion, 'degree mills' why not tell Degreeinfo members which they are? Or is Dr Bear not over confident of his own beliefs? I'm
    sure that stating these thoughts on the Degreeinfo site could in no way be considered as a 'public statement', which would most certainly be needed in NZ before litigation of any sort would be considered.
    I've just attempted another St Clements search on Degreeinfo - without success.
     
  6. oxpecker

    oxpecker New Member

    There are many St Clements threads, so I don't know why you don't see any of them. Try searching simply for Clements.
     
  7. fnhayes

    fnhayes New Member

    Thanks Oxpecker. Using just 'Clements University' worked well.:)
     
  8. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Stating what is and is not a degree mill is a subject process. Why criticize someone for being subjective in doing it? Or selective.

    Calling schools "degree mills" or "diploma mills" can result in legal action, and the truth is not always a sufficient defense. I think you find many, even most of the schools in the unaccredited chapters are legally constituted.

    And what's the difference? Placement in one chapter or another doesn't constitute an endorsement by the author. It's a means for organizing a book.
     
  9. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    You're either not a lawyer or you're a totally incompetent lawyer or you're a lawyer that wants to get other people in a mess. One thing is for sure though, you're statement is absolutely false. :D
     
  10. fnhayes

    fnhayes New Member

    Whilst I am not a lawyer (otherwise I'd be far more arrogant) I have had some experience with defamation cases in NZ - where
    publication of subjective comments about an individual, or an organisation, on an exclusive (almost) website would be laughed out of court, should someone or some group take offence and wish to seek legal retribution. However, in saying that it does seem likely that the NZ legal system will eventually sink to the level of our more advanced country cousins.
    :)
     
  11. cehi

    cehi New Member

    ___________________________________
    "A federal minister in Nigeria lost his job two years ago because he received his degree from St. Clements University".

    Oga Ike,

    What are the credentials of the Nigerian Federal minister? Does he have all the degrees (B, M, D) or just a terminal degree (M and D)? Thanks.
     
  12. fnhayes

    fnhayes New Member

    I'm also intrigued about the Nigerian Government Minister who lost his job because he had a St Clements degree, and would appreciate more details: particularly since St Clements appears to be very strong/active in many African countries - and in the far east and the UK? I am sure there is far more to this story?
    :(
     
  13. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    fnhayes: if 172 of the 250 unaccredited DL schools in his new edition are, in his opinion, 'degree mills' why not tell Degreeinfo members which they are? Or is Dr Bear not over confident of his own beliefs?

    John Bear: I am confident, not necessarily overconfident.

    In 1995, LaSalle University and James Kirk sued me for millions of dollars, because they did not like what I wrote about them. The largest law firm in Louisiana took my case semi-pro-bono (about 20% of their usual fees), but it still cost me more than $10,000 before it was all dismissed. A few months later, Kirk pleaded guilty to fraud for running LaSalle and was sent to federal prison.

    There have been seven other suits since 1976, all dismissed, all requiring spending money.

    Today I would not call a LaSalle-like school a degree mill. I am not my brothers' keepers. If someone finds a questionable school in my Chapter 21 and/or on the Oregon's list of schools whose degree use makes one a criminal there, and still chooses to defend and attend, I no longer feel any responsibility, only pity.
     
  14. Nosborne

    Nosborne New Member

    Getting sued is expensive, inconvenient, and painful. Even if you WIN.

    Nosborne, JD
     
  15. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    This is a public forum. Any posts made here would have to be considered public statements. People come here (such as yourself) and ask opinions about schools that they might enroll in. So it is easy for the degree mill to argue that their business was negatively and unfairly impacted by some statement. If a degree mill wanted to sue someone just for the joy of causing this someone trouble then it is a very easy thing to do. These con-artists seem to make more money than they know what to do with and throwing away a $100,000 for the joy of causing someone they are angry with could be considered a wise investment if it makes someone more hestitant to tell the truth about the fraudulent operation in the future. There is more than one example of this happening in the past. Dr. John Bear has been in that situation more than once.

    Pay attention to Dr. John Bear's words. Here's my summary. The owner of LaSalle sued Dr. John Bear, causing him trouble, grief and money. LaSalle was proven in a court of law to be a fraudulent and illegal operation. The owner of LaSalle was sent to jail. Dr. John Bear would no longer call a LaSalle-like school a degree mill (at least not until after it was proven to be fraudulent in a court of law).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 25, 2003
  16. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    I'm quite certain that I disagree. These days, the internet is more "public" than shouting from the roof-tops or publishing in the local newspaper.
    Jack
     

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