Some fields not learnable by distance

I'm a big fan of legitimate distance education, but I think some schools are pushing the envelope with the fields in which they offer degrees. High quality distance education in computer science, math, history, and business is plausible, but I can't imagine how people can get a quality full-blown degree exclusively online or via correspondence in fields like geology, foreign languages, chemistry, biology, and forestry. Those fields simply DEMAND lab work or field work or personal face-to-face interaction as a part of the curriculum. This is where you have to be careful to look beyond RA accreditation. TESC is an RA school, but you can bet the farm their forestry degree is not SAF (Society of American Foresters) accredited.

http://www.safnet.org/education/recognition.cfm

People with non-SAF accredited degrees simply can't compete on the same level for forestry positions as those from SAF-accredited schools. I know nothing about psychology, but I know that in reading this board, those who are knowledgable in the field warn of a lack of speciality accreditation which can really put even RA school graduates at a big disadvantage. I'm sure the same is true of other professions. RA schools are a great first step, but sometimes you need more. Distance education schools need to confine their offerings to subjects which do not demand lab or field work.

 

I think many in distance learning would agree . . . but one direction toward a solution is the development of distance courses only at the Master's level. For instance, there is almost nothing with recognized accredcitation available in engineering at the Bachelor's level, but a moderate amount (including places like Stanford) at the Master's. The assumption is that the hand-on basic knowledge and skills will come in the residential undergraduate program.

 

While I appreciate and respect your opinion on the subject matter.
I have to disagree you on part of your statement.

My undergraduate degree had two (2) concentrations:
Meteorology and Geology.
While all seven of my geology courses were completed via DL, I still had some labs to do...just not serious technical labs that one might have done at a b&m school...but I had lab project/activites.

The same with Meteorology...all my courses had labs!
50% were done via computer/real-time data...25% were handouts analysis activites...the remaining 25% were misc labs.

There are many DL courses that are well developed in Math, Biology, Meteorology, Geology, Oceanography, Forestry, Geography, and Computer Sciences.

The only subject matter that I would have to agree with you is in Chemistry...that is a heavy lab based subject (with the exception of a couple LL undergraduate course).

But my Masters is combining both Climatology and Geology...and I have some labs to do (from what I have been told).

A great example of a master's DL program is Mississippi State's Master in Geosciences http://www.msstate.edu/dept/geosciences/CT/TIG/Site.htm

 

That's going to be news to the Open University, who have been running distance degrees in all of the above except forestry for a quarter of a century. They even have engineering degrees that carry the UK equivalent of ABET.

http://www.open.ac.uk/

Angela

 

yes but what about field or lab work? I can't imagine how this can be achieved at a distance without having the student go to some sort of a proctor centre (equivalent to a proctor exam centre), or to have the student travel to the university for the lab-work altogether.

Can someone learn how to operate a theodolite wthout actually using it? Sure they can read about it, but then their response would be what that guy's response was when he saw an actual baseball game in the movie Blast from the past, "I finally get it! You have to see it to understand it!"...

I personally have to agree with Dr. Bear about having graduate degrees taught at a distance only... I feel it's much more practical. Truely DL Undergraduate degrees should be limited to subject areas that do not require lab-hardware... or to have proper measures for having proctor centres where students can go for their labs or field work.

Moreover, I don't think a fresh high school grad is in a shape to start DL... You have to have some sort of work experience at least to have developed the kind of discipline that is so desperately needed to see a DL degree through.

 

I don't understand your post.

Are you suggesting that the laboratory sciences, or the studio and performing arts for that matter, can be successfully taught with the labs and the supervised practice simply omitted? If so, I find that idea very difficult to accept.

Or are you suggesting that the necessary hand-on experiences can be provided to remote students in non-traditional ways? I can imagine remote students scheduling labs at local colleges, at corporate sites, or perhaps even under approved individualized master-pupil apprentiship arrangements. Whether or not it's credible depends on the small print.

So how does the Open University deal with the laboratory and practical experience problem?

 

The University of North Dakota offers DL undergrad ABET-accredited engineering degrees. Lab work is to be completed in residence during the summer, or at a local university if it corresponds to the UND course. It is expensive (about $1500/course), but a good alternative for some people.
I'm keeping that one in mind, if I decide to pursue the EE route (The bad thing for me is that I might have to take the entire curriculum. I might transfer some GE classes, but that's about it).

 

I would agree, but with an important distinction to consider. Some fields are not learnable by distance in the present form in which distance learning programs are implemented. More creativity in distance program delivery in fields that require hands-on training could go a long way toward solving this problem. For example, hands-on lab work could be completed through partnerships with local colleges and universities in which the local schools are paid a separate fee for use of their lab facitlities. Another way is through partnerships with private or government employers either through paid apprenticeships or part-time unpaid internships. Some distance programs are already doing this successfully but not enough of them yet. The ones that are doing it are mostly limited to clinical allied health fields because most areas have shortages of qualified people in these fields. One area that isn't yet implementing such programs is nursing, which seems strange because critical shortages of qualified nurses is even worse than that of allied health professions. But accredited programs delivering theroretical coursework by distance combined with hands-on instruction partnerships with local colleges or employers already exist for surgical technologists, radiologic technicians, sonographers, dental assistants, and veterinary technologists.

Because distance programs exist that are doing this successfully, I don't agree with your statement that "Distance education schools need to confine their offerings to subjects which do not demand lab or field work.". That way of thinking is limiting, and assumes there's only one way of learning certain subjects or one way of delivering such education. Instead of confinement of offerings I believe creative delivery methods need to be expanded. Another consideration is that some people already have years of practical work experience in fields such as engineering or computer science, all they really lack is a degree or a completed degree. Such people are able to hold on to their jobs in these fields but some are reluctant to change employers despite their provable experience because they lack that degree, but they are also unable to simply quit their jobs to devote years to attending B&M degree programs. Also, many in that position are consistently low-balled in salary despite their experience simply because employers use their lack of a degree as an excuse to offer lower salaries. For such people a distance degree combined with their years of practical experience would put them in a better position to command salaries comparable to others in those fields who began with the degree first and then got all of their practical experience.

Another consideration is the explosion of "credentialism" or "diplomaism", which is the pratice of demanding more and more educational requirements or certifications for the same jobs. Since these credentialism phenomena seem to be expanding rather than declining it's critical that creative distance education opportunities need to be expanded rather than further limited.

Kit

 

Foreign languages and many sciences (chemistry, physics, etc.) have been taught successfully at a distance for many years. Virtual labs, lab kits, lab facilities local to students, on-the-job experiences, audioconferencing, videoconferencing, computer simulations, web quests, short residencies and many other technology and non-technology based solutions exist.

In my years of working with fellow faculty in the integration of technology into learning and instruction, I have witnessed an amusing phenomenon. Many faculty will readily admit that nearly any subject can be taught at a distance--except, of course, THEIR subject.

While I am not currently inclined to defend the idea that all subjects and topics can be taught effectively at a distance, much research supports the idea that many can.

Tony Pina
Coordinator of Learning Technologies
Northeastern Illinois University

 

Just a thought here... distance learning at the doctoral level requires access to an on-campus university library that subscribes to an extensive set of journals. Online periodical databases are helpful, but typically have an embargo of up to one year for current journal articles.

Dave