Robb Elementary shooting

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by Dustin, May 27, 2022.

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  1. Dustin

    Dustin Well-Known Member

    This shooting is so sickening.

    For the usual reasons but this post is to focus on the armed police on scene who once again (https://apnews.com/article/shootings-parkland-florida-school-shooting-bb5c5fe81cecb63886bd325b53b2e597) did nothing. Cowards.

    Details are obviously still being established but it appears the police let the shooter go in, then formed a protective barrier around the school where they waited for 40+ minutes. (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/texas-school-shooting-police-response-uvalde/ - "Department of Public Safety Director Steve McCraw told reporters that 40 minutes to an hour elapsed from when the gunman opened fire on the school security officer" (though he later stated he couldn't give an accurate estimate.)

    Some went in to get their own kids and then continued to deny others access. (https://nypost.com/2022/05/24/texas-shooter-shot-whoevers-in-his-way-in-school-police/ - "Police officers rushed into the school to get their own children out of the school, he added.")

    According to a survivor, one cop told a kid to yell for help and that attracted the shooter who killed him. (https://v.redd.it/wexbfaq6mv191)

    They even briefly detained a parent trying to rescue their kid. (https://www.beaumontenterprise.com/news/local/article/Video-police-parents-Uvalde-school-shooting-Texas-17200630.php)

    My gut instinct is to call them cowards. How would I react in the same situation? I don't know. But I'd like to think if I were trained and armed I wouldn't get my kids out and then hang out outside while kids get slaughtered.
     
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  2. Vonnegut

    Vonnegut Well-Known Member

    What’s coming out about the PD response, including from a former prosecutor of the city, is just infuriating to a level I struggle to grasp.

    Cowardice is appropriate… I’ll back you up. There were children in danger… and they didn’t have the constitution to step up. Hearing of the fathers who were practically fighting to go in and being blocked by the PD, is just hard to grasp.
     
  3. Rachel83az

    Rachel83az Well-Known Member

    I don't know how any of those police will ever be able to sleep again at night. But, from what I've seen on social media, they're not going to find it super difficult. Most of the kids were "only" Mexican and not "real" people, after all.

    Also, some on the right are using this as a reason not to protect children by passing stricter gun laws, but to abolish schools entirely. To be honest, I'm kind of wondering if that wasn't the intention of at least some of the cops on the scene.
     
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  4. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    I grew up with guns and served in the Navy. I am no stranger to firearms and firearm safety (which is why I cut Alex Baldwin zero slack). I very deliberately don't own any firearms myself despite regular official encouragement that I arm myself for my own safety. (Judges are frequent targets.)


    But I have a very difficult time seeing what effective gun control would look like at this point unless the federal government starts seizing and destroying a hundred million firearms in private hands. How, exactly, would this work?
     
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  5. Rachel83az

    Rachel83az Well-Known Member

    AFAIK, gun buyback programs can actually be quite effective. I think sometimes people have guns because they don't know what else to do with a gun that they were gifted or inherited or that they bought and no longer want/need. Having fewer of these kinds of guns around would help stop criminals from being able to acquire them via simple burglary.

    But first you'd have to tighten up the requirements to be able to purchase a new gun in the first place. I've seen some of the requirements for owning guns in other countries. Most of these requirements seem pretty sane and sensible, such as the whole process taking months instead of days. That would help reduce the number of people committing "crimes of passion" because of a disagreement they got into last week and were able to obtain a firearm within the next day or two.
     
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  6. Jonathan Whatley

    Jonathan Whatley Well-Known Member

    It's striking to hear Don Jr. and Eric talk about the virtues they learned from hunting with their grandfather. The detail they'll likely omit is that that this was their maternal grandfather, and this happened under the gun laws of glasnost-era Czechoslovakia during their visits there.
     
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  7. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Maybe. But even if you bought back three quarters of the guns out there, there would still be tens of millions of firearms in private hands.
     
  8. Rachel83az

    Rachel83az Well-Known Member

    Maybe. But that's still millions of guns that can't be used for gun crimes.

    It's like saying "Well, if we feed a million starving people in this city, there will still be millions of starving people, so we shouldn't even bother." Maybe there will still be millions of starving people, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to save the ones you can.
     
  9. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Maybe. I don't really know.
     
  10. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Meanwhile, because of the misbegotten notion of qualified immunity, police are generally impervious to accountability for their actions, or, in this case, inactions.
     
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  11. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    Once I heard about the poor response, I assumed it was based on the demographics of the kids who predominantly made up the school population. Shameful people!
     
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  12. Rachel83az

    Rachel83az Well-Known Member

    The police also do not have a duty of care to anyone. Qualified immunity or not, they don't have to arrest people who are making threats. They don't have to arrest anyone who is an active menace. They get to pick and choose who goes to jail and who does not.
     
  13. JoshD

    JoshD Well-Known Member

    Without diving into gun control and gun ownership thoughts, I did want to comment on this.

    I have long held the notion that these types of killings are a direct correlation to the United States lack of mental health care initiatives and funding. Until we get to the root of the issue, there will be virtually no changes. Criminals do not abide by laws. If they did, human trafficking, drug trafficking, etc. would be minimal...which we all know is not the case.
     
  14. Vonnegut

    Vonnegut Well-Known Member

    Effective is an interesting word choice. If we’re wondering what effective gun control looks like, we could look at ‘effectively’ any other developed country. Not trying to challenge semantics though, but have to mention that.

    Unfortunately, gun control is more bifurcated than even the general political landscape. We have one end who believes any infringement is an apocalypse and the other end of the spectrum that almost intentionally inflamed the other. Really hard to find an acceptable middle ground, in this environment. While I’m uncomfortable to adverse with registries, insurance, seizure arguments… really can’t see rational (albeit non-constitutional) arguments against improved background checks, loophole closures, increasing age requirements, mandatory training, etc.
     
  15. AsianStew

    AsianStew Moderator Staff Member

    In related news, Husband of Texas school shooting victim dies of heart attack, family says (msn.com)

    Ouch, I think the death of his wife caused such trauma, it's really sad to see a ripple effect like this happen. They should have a law not to sell guns to anyone without looking at their background (thoroughly).

    Similar to finding jobs, selling guns should go through several security checks. Federal spending is actively wasted on less important things. They should easily be able to budget something like this for all states and territories.
     
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  16. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    I can't post my candid feelings on the completely botched police response without commiting multiple TOS violations.

    I'd prefer to not jump to the conclusion that there was any racial or political motive for the failure to act. It is entirely unwarranted. The unfortunate fact is that a massive delay in entering and engaging with suspects has been a recurring problem during major mass shootings. The only rationale that anyone attempts to give is some version or another of "we weren't ready to go in". I have TOS-violating candid thoughts on that excuse as well.

    As for gun control- like most things, it's a lot more complicated than the most vocal proponents of either side make it out to be. Rachel83az has some reasonable observations and suggestions on the matter as she has detailed above. We could start there, at least, but how far does gun control have go to actually be effective, and how far must it not go before it does more harm than good?

    There are numerous points of contact where this specific shooting could have been prevented or at least mitigated. It turned out to be an absolute failure of every system and institution from top to bottom. It's actually amazing that many more, even into the hundreds, of kids were not killed by this one guy, considering how much opportunity he was given to do so.
     
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