Regionals vs. DETC - A Real Turf War

Regarding the statements that the DETC believes that the RA is out to "get them". I don't balieve it. If someone tried to start up a new company selling a PC operating system, there's no doubt in my mind that they would immediately start screaming that Microsoft was out to get them when they didn't make sufficient sales. The real problem would not be that anyone was out to get them the real problem would be that they were so such small potatoes that people didn't even consider them. DETC is more like that. Small potatoes being paranoid simply because RA is comparatively huge.

 

<<The Accrediting Commission for Cosmetology Arts and Sciences? Cal Tech needs to accept beauty college credits?>>


No, of course not. The bill doesn't stipulate that every accredited school must accept all credits from every other acredited school. It merely says that a school can't refuse to accept transfer credits from another accredited school just because of the accreditor. The earned credits would still obviously have to be applicable to the program. This just says that if I take english and math courses at say, Tennesse Temple (TRACS), that Maryland University (RA) can't refuse to accept them in transfer simply because I earned them at a TRACS school. This is the way it should be. I wouldn't expect to transfer Old Testament Theology or Doctrines of the Bible into an engineering program (unless there was room for open electives), but I would expect all applicable classes to transfer. This is long, LONG overdue.

Pug

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Regionals vs. DETC - A Real Turf War

Yes, I understand that's what you want, but it simply doesn't work that way. At least not now.

Why do you insist that the RA schools must accept the DETC degrees???

 

Re: The Republicans are in charge now....

The two accrediting bodies (RA and DETC) are seperate and distinct from each other. The six RA accreditors have reciprical agreements with eachother, but there is no such reciprocal agreement between the RA accreditors and DETC. Subsequently, the RA schools do not have to accept DETC degrees.

It is possible to pass a law that would force the RA schools to accept DETC accreditation. However, no such law exists. At least not today.

If you want to spend your time and money earning a DETC degree, then go for it, but don't expect RA schools to honor your DETC degree if you want to pursue higher education.

 

So what if a beauty college offers English comp classes for credit as a part of a certificate or AA program in hairdressing, then you try to transfer them into College Park hoping to meed the U. of Maryland's writing requirement?

I wonder.

If the members of accrediting associations can't establish for themselves what they expect university classes and programs to look like, but are forced by the state to accept very different and perhaps contradictory visions set by different groups with different purposes and agendas, then what's the point of having private accrediting associations at all?

What you will end up with is a de-facto lowest-common-denominator where the floor is set by whatever the Department of Education decides is the limit to what it will recognize. So you will have the government essentially seizing the academic standard-setting function from the academic community and transforming it into still more politically motivated federal regulations.

I couldn't disagree more.

 

Let us take a minute to recap what russ is doing here.

The avowed "champion of unaccredited schools" has now switched gears and is attempting to get us to argue that there is a "war" (in his own mind) between accreditors - RA versus DETC.

He appears to be one very shrewd (some would say, manipulative) poster. He has vowed to fight as a "champion for unaccredited schools" because he said they are or can be legitimate:

quote:
posted by russ
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As long as there is one good unaccredited college or university out there or "exceptions to the rule" as you state it, I will fight for their right to never be accredited and still be considered legitimate.
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Yes, russ came here to fight for and to be viewed as the champion for "legitimate" unaccredited schools. He has also claimed, without providing any proof, that unaccredited schools and diploma mills are not the same:

quote
posted by russ on 2-18-05, in another thread:
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..... Your use of "unaccredited degrees" implies the same connotation as "degree mills." My argument is that they are not the same and that you can have legitimate unaccredited schools.
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We know little to nothing about him or his background other than that he is an Oregonian who thinks that (i) the ODA serves no legitimate public purpose, and that (ii) KW"U" won in their legal tussle with the ODA.

Now, he flails about in a sea of illogic grandeur and attempts to divide us with his usual hyperbolic rants, this time arguing a "war" between valid accreditors, two bastions of institutional and programmatic academic quality.

I am not saying that this thread has not proven to be a decent discussion. In fact, as usual, many Degreeinfo posters have provided salient and factual points on both sides of the issue.

I just want to refresh everyone's memory as to this anonymous poster's proclivities - a failed champion of unaccredited schools - who now mischievously wants us to believe that accreditation is no good anyway since the major accreditors are fighting this internecine "war."

Russ in my view is acting true to my perceptions of him as an agent provocateur. He needs to be called on the carpet for his inconsistencies and charade.

He gives me no good reason to cease questioning his motives and sincerity on these boards.

Thanks.

 

I simply posted an exerpt of FAQ on DETC official web site.
That someone is DETC who is acusing RA not me.

I think that DETC is valid accreditor but has long way before it will be on the level of New England association, historicly and academicly.

So there is a big defrence between legitimate recognized accreditor and highly respectfull and academicly advanced accreditor with representatives from Harvard etc.

Learner

 

I have a deferent view.

What I like is his post produced a range of responces that have very high value to the readers.
This educates the reader and makes him or her less victom of diploma mill, because he will have the full picture and be able to make his / her own mind.

I learned from this post about the legislation and other views of educated people who visit this group and share their view.

Many times in a group when we study a subject we will do what is called a negative testing a person will try to chalange a belive or a teory.

For example some one willl state WASC is less recognized then New England Association.

Persons will begin to read, research and support or reject this view by intelegent and educated responces.

 

Re: Re: The Republicans are in charge now....

Good point, but as I stated above, we are dealing with more than just individual business here. The current transfer policy leads to increased federal student aid borrowing and repeated coursework.

I would argue that reducing the regulation on students and making quality education more accessible and cost effective is quite Republican. This may be one of the reasons every co-sponsor (last I checked) is Republican.

 

Good cause......

Yes, Liberty should take your credits provided that (1) they are from a properly accredited institution and (2) they match courses offered by Liberty in terms of credit hours, content, and rigor.

The legislation will prevent regionally schools from auto-rejecting applicants from nationally accredited schools. Course content, applicability, and rigor, not the source of legitimate accreditation, should be the deciding factors.

 

Re: Good cause......

And how do you propose they would judge "rigor"?

 

Re: Re: Regionals vs. DETC - A Real Turf War

 

<<So what if a beauty college offers English comp classes for credit as a part of a certificate or AA program in hairdressing, then you try to transfer them into College Park hoping to meed the U. of Maryland's writing requirement?>>

First of all, I think you're intentionally looking at extreme scenarios that are quite unlikely. That said, assuming that the english comp class offered by the accredited beauty school was of similar content and rigor, yes, the transfer credits should be accepted. Why shouldn't they be? As I said though, this is likely a far fetched scenario. In real life it is more likely that one would attempt to transfer these credits from an academic DETC school, a liberal arts Christian college, or a Bible college.

Pug

 

Here is the problem with the current system...it is my opinion that most (not all) RA schools have a bias toward NA. Here is a true example:

I have been taking classes at a NA school. The Big 3 (Excelsior, TESC, COSC) will not accept any of the NA credits in transfer. BUT, they will accept the credits I've earned if I submit them in a portfolio, with transcripts, for a portfolio assessment. What's the difference? There is no fee for transfer credits. There is a per credit hour fee for portfolio assessment. Doesn't it seem the slightest bit strange that the NA credits are sufficient enough to earn portfolio credit but not transfer credit???? It's ridiculous.

Another example: I am currently attending Briercrest College, NA through the ABHE and located in Canada. In written correspondence with a foreign crudential evaluation service, I was told that credits earned at Briercrest would be deemed as equivalent to RA. Only because Briercrest is located outside of the United States is this even an option though. If Briercrest was located inside the United States this evaluation would not be possible and credits earned at Briercrest would have far less acceptance in the RA community, simply because they were NA. Ridiculous.

Pug

 

No its not. Them Cnajuns is just smarter'n us.

 

<<Amen. There's no "turf war" (real or otherwise). This whole thing with DETC fans reminds me of the North Korean blustering with the US. First they swear they have no nukes, then they admit they do. Then they insist on meeting only with the US, then they say they won't meet only with the US. It's all an effort to make themselves out as more significant than they really are. It's best to just ignore the DETC and graduates of their "accredited universities." If DETC ever gets to the point where there is true parity with RA, so be it. In the mean time, all this petty posturing means nothing. I suspect most of it comes from grads of DETC schools who are exhibiting buyer's regret.>>

I have never taken a DETC course. Have you? I think your statements are pretty far reaching and generalized. The weakest course I have ever taken was from LSU (RA). Does that mean all RA schools are that disappointing? Of course not! Nor do I think it's fair that you generalize all DETC schools.

Pug

 

Seriously, Pug, I agree. There is no turf war. The whole idea was floated by someone who says somewhere in his flushing spate of passive-aggressive posts that he disbelieves in truth or falsehood.
----------
Q. What do Canadians call getting taken to the cleaners by the federal gov't.?
A. Martinizing.

 

No, Janko, I said that "philosophers" say that there may not be objective truth and named one in particular, Stephen Stich. I did not say I agreed with them or that was also my own personal philosophy.

For some of you who haven't figured it out yet, I am here to learn more about this issue not just post. The posting I do seems to help stimulate discussion, like this one, which aids in the educational process. It is amazing what you guys read into my posts. It would be a terrific study in human psychology.

As for the turf war, if you don't believe that money and politics has anything to do with accreditation then you must also believe that Congress is full of honest people who are truly looking out for our interests.

 

Really?

DETC is writing on it's web site that there is a problem with RA universities refusing accept credits from non RA school.

This may be seen as turf war.

DETC words - "The real issue here has less to do with the academic quality of the sending institution, and more to do with anti-competitive business practices of the receiving institution."

Sorry this is acusation on RA Universities by DETC.

http://www.detc.org/frequentlyQust.html

Q. If my credits do not transfer to a regionally accredited college, is my DETC credential useless?

A. No! The sine qua non of an institution’s quality is not if its credits transfer: this is a false premise. The fact that regionally accredited colleges refuse to accept credits from another school because it is not regionally accredited flies directly in the face of national policies advocated by American Council on Education (ACE), the American Association of Collegiate Registrars and Admissions Officers (AACRAO), Council for Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA), et al. The real issue here has less to do with the academic quality of the sending institution, and more to do with anti-competitive business practices of the receiving institution. Competition is heating up in higher education, and there are forces at work to control the inroads being made by “upstart” operators. Congress, the Department of Education, and the Department of Justice have been looking into this anti-competitive practice by higher education, and we suspect we will see significant activity in the coming months on this matter.

HELLO am I the only one who reads what DETC is trying to say?

Even if acceptance improved since that statement was made.

Learner

 

Sorry Lerner,

No. All that is is rattling on the part of DETC. They want to be noticed and they want to be respected. Quite honestly, in the last two years they have done a decent job of cleaning up their act and can now reasonably be considered respectable. As to gaining the kind of respect the RA s have, that will take time. As in years. They are on the way, but that takes time.