Regional Accreditation Lacks Quality

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by russ, Feb 9, 2005.

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  1. russ

    russ New Member

    I am fairly new to the forum but I have noticed an automatic assumption that may be at least partially invalid. The assumption is that regional accreditation indicates a quality of education unmatched by national accredited or state approved schools. In fact, the state of Oregon has taken this position and has created a paid position that enforces this very assumption.

    In other words, no matter how poorly you were educated by your regionally accredited school you are assumed to have a higher quality of education simply because they are regionally accredited. This works extremely well for the regional accreditation bodies who look down their collective noses at anyone who does not belong to their system. Again, the state of Oregon has a person who enforces this academic condescension by forcing any school without regional accreditation to 'prove' that they have an acceptable level of quality in their curriculum. Why a state would pay a person to enforce the status quo of regional accreditation is beyond my limited understanding.

    Do all schools that have regional accreditation truly provide a superior education over any other school?
     
  2. All schools vary in quality based on "you get what you pay for" (generally). However, yes all schools that have regional accreditation are at least as good, and are measured by an independent objective body (the accreditors), as their non-accredited counterparts, many of whom are simply resume/credit card operations with no oversight whatsoever regarding their quality.

    The only other basis for comparison is national (foreign) accreditation, such as UK chartered institutions.

    And as for "superior education", that is always in the eye of the beholder. For example, I feel that I'm getting a far more "superior education" at Amberton than I ever did in the University of Wisconsin system - both are regionally accredited, and the UW holds a much higher mark of esteem, yet Amberton has provided a more research-intense learning experience for me throughout.

    However, "superior education" does not include my blathering on about my "life achievements", providing some inflated resume, and a draft on my credit card for my PhD flavor of the day from the latest scam artists to hit the Internet.....
     
  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Why of course! Don't you listen to all those college graduate athletes with their superior grammatical and diction skills from RA schools?

    And don't forget those wonderful print and media journalists from
    RA schools who butcher the English language!

    :D My money is definitely on RA! :D
     
  4. italiansupernova

    italiansupernova New Member

    As a product of Grantham University I can honestly say that the program is/was far more difficult and intensive that the two classes I took through AIU. Grantham makes you work HARD and don't think that "open book" exams are a walk in the park. THEY AREN'T.

    I can't tell you how many times I postponed my AIU studies to the last minute slapped something together and received an "A". With Grantham the courses MAKE you read just about everything.

    I'm not a "RA or the highway" type guy not only because of my Grantham ties, but because I believe it "different strokes to different folks". I'd recommend Grantham to anyone who is looking into a program that they offer.

    IMHO....
     
  5. jugador

    jugador New Member

    Do all schools that have regional accreditation truly provide a superior education over any other school? [/B][/QUOTE]

    With virtually no exceptions, the answer is "yes."
     
  6. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    The exempations would primarily be foreign schools since RA is almost exclusively with the USA. There may be a few other exemptions, perhaps some DETC schools or Bob Jones University?

    Russ, did you have some other specific examples in mind?
     
  7. russ

    russ New Member

    My first point is that I don't believe that the regional accreditation bodies are "independent and objective." They have a vested interest in their accreditation and it shows up quite dramatically when you try to get an RA school to accept something like a DETC credit. According to Department of Education and CHEA, a DETC credit should be just as valuable as any other credit by any other school including RAs. Try to tell that to an RA university.

    Yet the RAs also have Distance Learning (and are doing so in a big way) which completely invalidates their argument that distance learning under a DETC credit does not have the quality of an RA credit. Both are earned online with no class attendance.

    So why doesn't an RA school accept DETC credits?
     
  8. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    Russ: "So why doesn't an RA school accept DETC credits?"

    John: More than 1,000 of them do. And even more accept DETC credits that have been evaluated by the American Council on Education. If I were advising a DETC-accredited school (and I used to), I would vigorously recommend they go through the ACE process (and they did). Why the majority of DETC-accredited schools apparently haven't done this is a mystery to me.

    Russ: "In fact, the state of Oregon has taken this position" (only accepting RA schools).

    John: No they haven't. Just as California Coast was removed from the DETC black list a few weeks ago when they got their DETC accreditation, so have all other DETC-accredited schools.
     
  9. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Obviously it's possible that some non-RA school might offer a better education to some individual student in some particular subject than some other competing RA school. Nobody disputes that.

    But if people who aren't personally familiar with the graduate, the program and the school are expected to recognize and acknowledge that supposed fact, then they need to have some reason why they should.

    To some extent that's true.

    If we pass strangers on the street, they might have any kind of education. Maybe they studied in a wonderful progam. Maybe their program was crappy. Maybe they are self-educated. Maybe they learned on the job. Who knows? Who can say?

    The whole point of degrees isn't what the graduate him/herself thinks they mean. The value of degrees is what they mean to strangers.

    Degrees are certifications that tell us that a graduate's education met some vaguely defined but generally expected standard. That's great, but what if we have never heard of the university that granted the degree and we have no way of knowing how much weight (if any) to give its certifications?

    Accreditation to the rescue. Institutional accreditation generally takes the form of an association of universities stating that a particular member school's standards are acceptable to the other member schools. That's great too, but what if the accreditor's list of member schools doesn't inspire very much confidence?

    No, probably not in every single case. But that's not really the point.

    If clients and employers are expected to simply trust a diploma without knowing the graduate who earned it or the school that awarded it, then regional accreditation probably provides them with better odds than do the alternatives.
     
  10. russ

    russ New Member

    Thank you for your post John.

    A few more comments...

    My understanding is that the percentage of RAs that accept DETC credits is about 30%, a very low number which does not necessarily support your comment that RAs do accept DETC credits. Frankly, I think the number should be 100% since accredited should mean accredited unless the RAs have a secret recipe for distance learning. Speaking of distance learning, I would think that DETC would know more about that than the relatively new programs put together by RAs. After all, DETC was started as an accrediting organization for distance learning by home study and correspondence - a fact that they prominently mention in their FAQ section.

    In addition, since accreditation is voluntary and not required it seems that you could have some quality schools who have either dropped their accreditation or were never accredited in the first place. If a state has approved the school as a legitimate degree granting institution, which happens not to be regionally or DETC accredited, isn't it possible that you could receive a high quality education from such a school? Does all legitimate post-secondary education have to come from accredited schools?

    Also, wouldn't Oregon put such a school on their 'not approved' list and put you in jail if you mentioned you went there?
     
  11. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    When did the Dept. of Education and CHEA say that? As far as I know, both of these bodies leave it up to individual universities to decide for themselves what credits to accept or reject.

    If you are implying that all recognized accreditors are equal, that's ridiculous. The Accrediting Commission of Cosmetology Arts and Sciences is a recognized accreditor, but that doesn't mean that Cal Tech needs to accept beauty college credits.

    Obviously the situation is more difficult with DETC, because DETC is a long-time accreditor of 'learn a skill in your spare time' correspondence programs that's been trying to change itself into a higher-education accreditor over the last decade or so.

    So it seems to me that your complaint is really about whether everyone else needs to acknowledge that DETC has fully arrived on the academic scene.

    The proof of that is probably in the list of schools that DETC accredits. Unfortunately, it's still difficult to find people associated with DETC schools producing scholarship. (American Military University is probably an exception, but it's also an RA candidate. The Australian schools and UNISA don't have DETC as their primary accreditation.) DETC schools don't often win awards or grants. We don't see them participating with other schools in collaborative projects. They don't get a lot of notice from professional or scholarly organizations.

    Personally, I think that DETC schools have a lot of work to do in these scholarly areas if they really expect to start offering doctoral programs that the rest of the academic world will take seriously. DETC can't just depend on their US Dept. of Education recognition and on a chip on their shoulder. They will have to start playing the same academic game that the research universities play. That's why I think that if DETC is really serious about their upcoming doctoral 'pilot project', they need to take action right now to promote stronger scholarship at those DETC schools with graduate programs and doctoral aspirations.
     
  12. tcnixon

    tcnixon Active Member

    You may wish to go back and read what he wrote. John specifically said that 1000 schools do accept DETC credits. I don't mean to split hairs, but that 30% is close enough for government work. The latest Peterson's lists over 2,100 schools, but I had thought there were about 3000 or so (perhaps including community colleges).



    Tom Nixon
     
  13. russ

    russ New Member

    Although this is a witty comment, it distorts what I was saying. I was comparing accredited college course credits to accredited college course credits to keep it simple. Apples to apples. I think you get my drift...

    It is my humble opinion that an accrediting body that is approved by the Department of Education and CHEA should have the same standing as any other accrediting body for the same kind of coursework. If fact, DETC mentions on their site that their accreditation is as valid in every way as regional accreditation. They also say that any accreditation body (primarily regionals) that does not accept their credits violates the spirit of accreditation by CHEA and the department of Education. Naturally, this seems, and is, self serving for DETC but I believe they are right.

    This is a turf war, plain and simple, that the regionals want to win for their own purposes (money?).
     
  14. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    As usual, I must agree with what Bill says. Will DETC be able to compete (reputation wise) with RA doctorate programs? Perhaps but probably not for at least a decade. I say that because any new school startup is going to have to go through a time period to make a reputation. I would guess that it will be even harder for a DETC school than an RA school to start up a new doctorate program and build up their reputation.
     
  15. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    I have never bought into these conspiracy type theories that are frequently asserted. There are problems with RA schools accepting RA credits. The number of DETC schools is small relative to the number of RA schools. They are not as well known. I think if you combine that fact with the fact that most schools do not accept all credits from other schools we can come up with a simple explanation that doesn't need to use words like turf, conspiracy (which I know you didn't use), etc.
     
  16. Rivers

    Rivers New Member

    Now why aren't there cross acrediated schools. Why do schools automatically drop DETC accrediation the second they get RA. This would help DETC become more accepted.
    In most cases you will find that RA schools do have more published and prestigous professors. Also they are the ones that get the grant money.
    It is of courswe possible for someone with an RA degree to get a second rate education. That reflects badly on EVERY one: the school & the individual. Not that you could not get a quality education at a DETC school, Yet there are going to be biases. YOu must realise in the Academic world there are more than mere RA,DETC. There are also Professional accrediation(e.g. AACSB & APA). There is debate as to what those accrediations mean,but If you want to have your credits and credentials accepted everywhere you'd better have graduated from an APA school if you are psychology major. Granted a graduated of a RA PhD may have learnt more and be better educated the same doors will not be open to them(at least initally, that is if the RA graduate does publish many exellent papers in prestigous journals he could surpass the professional accrediated one).
     
  17. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Since no school (yet) has gone from being DETC-accredited to applying for--and receiving--regional accreditation, I would have to say that this hasn't happened. Do you have an example of a school that was first accredited by DETC, then accredited by a regional, then dropped DETC?
     
  18. russ

    russ New Member

    I am not a conspiracist either but I do recognize that money makes the world go around and that applies to the education world as well. You are right about RAs not accepting RA credits which I also believe is wrong. I knew someone who had two full years of RA college credits in Oregon who moved to California and instead of becoming a junior the RA school in California threw out enough credits to take him back to freshman status. He was upset to say the least and moved back to Oregon to get his degree. It shows you how messed up this whole system is already.
     
  19. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    I have seen the same thing happen (and have been a victim of it myself. Certainly, there are many, many institutions that are "messed up", when it comes to transfer of credits. Some schools are very rigid as to which courses satisfy their general education requirements (a major source of transfer problems). Another isuue is residency, where schools require that you complete a certain amount of courses (usually equivalent to a full year's worth of full-time study) at their campus before they will issue a degree--a very institutional-centered approach.

    Other schools take, what I feel, as a more student-centered approach. My institution (Northeastern Illinois University) has a program called the Board of Governors Bachelors in which students can satisfy the modest residency requirement (15 units) by taking courses (either face-to-face or DL) at any of several different state universities in Illinois. The Cal States (and other state university systems) should adopt something like this. Of course, the oft-mentioned "Big Three" (Excelsior, Charter Oakl and Thomas Edison) require no residency and are very liberal as to their transfer policies.

    Tony
     
  20. russ

    russ New Member

    You mention a student-centered and institutional-centered approach by the schools. Any speculation as to what drives the different philosophies? Does money have anything to do with it?
     

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