Orion College (the former LaSalle) Closes

First: Nobody called you an idiot. (At least not that I saw.) In fact, I think I've gone out of my way to be nice to you.

Second: The problem with non-RA schools (regardless if I think they are the best thing since the library) is that hiring managers tend to be "education snobs" also. They are funny that way.

If you don't ever plan on using the degree for anything other than the knowledge gained (and bragging rights to your family and friends) then feel free to enroll anywhere you like. But: You could do the same thing by spending a few weeks in a library and then printing your own degree.

 

ellis -

true fact, you have been a gentleman and i have taken your points to heart. perhaps it's because you're polite, understanding, and willing to discuss rather than condemn. the others can learn something from you!

i still think orion is a step above the library. i got good feedback from my instructors (yes, i realize that term is debateable in itself - let's not perseverate on that, too. i have to refer to them as something). i enjoyed my experience. simply my opinion.

ellis, your comments have been sincerely appreciated. my apologies for any misunderstanding.

--marcus issoglio

 

Hi Marcus

Thanks for your response. It seems you are satisfied with the education you gained from your Orion degree program. I am glad of that.

I would not recommend a DETC accredited degree except as a last choice or in exceptional circumstances. As has been discussed an RA degree is available for approximately the same cost as a DETC or unaccredited degree. RA is the gold standard as far as degrees go. For US students there really is no choice as good.

As for your points
1. From the beginning Orion was merely an extension of La Salle run by the management that took over after the conviction of the previous management on degree mill charges. If it gained you what you wanted/needed great, but it is not a surprise that it is unacceptable to many.

2. If by condescending you mean that we take the choice of a Degree which is a huge investment time and money wise very seriouly, I don't think that will change.

3. Good joke but I think most of responses you have gotten have been very understanding and even supportive.

Again thanks for your response and contribution. I hope you continue here. I think the responses you've gotten here have been a little more liberal than you will receive in the business and academic world. Again good luck in your journey.

------------------
Best Regards,
Dave Hayden

 

Originally posted by marcusissoglio:
i'm not sure (mainly since the consensus is that i am (1) an idiot and (2) devoid of anything near an education) but i believe i am being ganged up upon by education snobs.

Hey, Marcus,

There's a huge difference in questioning someone's action, viewpoint, or judgement and calling them an idiot. Degreeinfo is all about discussion and questioning viewpoints... and all *not* about name calling and personal attacks.

I think if you reread what most of the posters have said, we're saying "Wow, it's hard to understand why someone would make this decision", not "You're a bozo for choosing Orion."

In point of fact, there *are* posters here that have more inside information. At least two of the regulars here has met and spoken with much of the senior staff of the former Orion; several others have had extended email correspondence, and we've had people give firsthand reports of coursework there.

A wonderful, rigorous program it isn't and never has been. An out-and-out fraud it probably isn't either. But there have been allegations (unproven, but from more than one source that appeared to have inside info) that the school never *did* separate from it's past, and that Thomas Kirk was still heavily involved in secret.

It's always difficult to stand up and say "I screwed up. It was a terrible decision", even if you feel that way... and it sounds like you did get some benefit from your time at Orion. But knowing what you know now, I doubt you'd do it again... and that's a large part of what we feel this board is here to do... to provide the info so that others won't make the same mistake.

That is why you find so many people so quick to offer opposing viewpoints to people that seem to praise "less-than-wonderful" schools... it's not about bashing the person who went to the program, it's about being very clear in explaining the situation so that others don't make the same mistake.

Please don't take it personally... I don't think anyone here intends it in that way.

 

ok - i am offering a big fat white flag.

1. orion did not defraud me - i got what i paid for.

2. i did not come away empty handed. i am pleased with the application i have from what i gained to where i can use it.

3. i do understand what most people are hung up on. it's less of an issue in my life than others.

4. i am told that orion is working on transfering current students to DETC accredited programs. i can't argue with that effort. i think it's very accomodating.

5. i really, really don't want to feel like everyone here is some sort of clone of each other. this is difficult to do (with the exception of ellis -you are definitely cool) with the underlying tone of the postings on this thread. some have called them supportive and understanding, but they are not. others have said not to take them personally, but that is difficult. i will try, but it's not easy.

6. i concede that established and accredited is the way to go. i wish i was finishing up rather than worrying about what happens next, believe me. i just didn't like the way orion was getting bashed at the opening of this thread and i had to share my experience. it really wasn't that bad. i honestly believe there is room for everyone.

--marcus issoglio

 

I think what people are "hung up on" is the debate over what constitutes the definitions, practices, limits, and reasonable parameters in going about the business of the quality of a school's offerings. I don't think anyone here would argue that one could educate themselves in many ways. One of which is through an unaccredited program. Another is in your local library or in visiting with a respected colleague that you mentor under. The debate is not about learning. That is a reasonable debate to have but is tangential to the issue of institutional and program credibility.

I think the lines of defense are drawn up when academic credibility is suggested for an unaccredited program because without some sort of accreditation, there is no referenced baseline to help form the argument over what standards govern that unaccredited program. Sure learning can, and likely does, take place. But by what yardstick can a prospective learner baseline their expectations if there is no standard against which that institution or its programs have been reviewed or compared?

I would not say an ongoing debate over the merits and practicalities of accreditation, or lack thereof, constitutes the equivalence of being "hung up" on Orion or the various means by which people can learn.

Paul C.

 

Hi Marcus

More than likely we are going to have to agree to disagree. You seem to be suggesting that Orion and other near degree-mills serve a valuable service. I truly believe they do not and are in fact a disservice to their students.

Many of their students are not there just for the education but expect to be able to use the degree in some manner. As has been discussed in this thread and others that is more than likely NOT possible.

Many of their students do not understand accreditation and the need for it. I believe these institutions play to that lack of knowledge.

Most troubling in your post is the reference to Orion arranging for a transfer of credits to a DETC institution. That is truly sad for DETC.

If you believe that posters here have been tough on you, I think you will be surprised by the reactions you get in the business and academic world. As always I wish you well.

------------------
Best Regards,
Dave Hayden

 

Dave, it is an old adage, but one that is always appropriate:

Don't beleive everything you read.

Paul C

 

What the hell do I know anyway - all I can say is that i talked to Dr. Milburn directly and he told me that Orion is working towards getting all currents students transferred. I got this first hand.

What does your "you can believe everything you read" comment imply:

1. Marcus is fibbing.

2. Orion is fibbing.

I sincerely hope it is not the first choice as I have been completely honest in the face of blatent hostility.

Which is it, bug guy..?

--marcus issoglio

 

--corrected for typos

 

First, I'm really not very big. Second, my response was in response to Dave's comment, which clearly expressed a presumption that the transfer of unaccredited credits to DETC accredited schools was simply a matter of “arrangement”.

I do not doubt your honesty. I doubt Orion’s. This "working toward" concept has been heard many times in the context of "working toward" accreditation. I don't doubt your honesty and I don't doubt Orion is in touch with DETC schools. I do have doubts about the presumed end results.

I have not questioned your positive learning experience with Orion. My position has focused on your own indication that the decision was cost based while your argument is based on alternative education. If you had said your choice was based on the unique alternative education paradigm offered by Orion, even if I disagreed, I would respect your right to that position. But you said it was based on cost.

You have received no hostility from me. It would be unfair to associate disagreement, or even dissention, with hostility.

 

As a practical matter, most knowledgeable employers will never find out if you had a good learning experience, because they will not call you in for an interview (unless the job doesn't require a degree). That is the problem with most unaccredited degrees.

Your argument that people here are not open-minded is correct; they aren't open-minded about degrees that have little practical utility. What's your point? Do you want them to say that useless degrees are useful and pat you on the back? That wouldn't be open-minded; it would be intellectually dishonest.

You say that you saved a few dollars; I say that you lost every penny that you spent...especially considering that there are low-cost, accredited alternatives.

(Chip said it nicely, but the message was not heard.)

 

paul -

it was loud and clear the first time. thanks.

a gentle recap:

them: orion sucks and we're glad they're gone.

me: hey look, i was there it wasn't that bad.

them: yes it was, you're just too much of an idiot to know it. we have people inside, we know better.

me: is that a fact? well, speaking for myself i was happy. i actually learned stuff, even if it is arguable that i could have learned the same with less then $15.00 in late fees from the local library .

them: too bad you find value with what you spent, it was completely wasted. even if it was DETC accredited, DETC sucks, too. if you want proof, ask anyone involoved with hiring people.

me: whatever you say. i was of the mindset that it all might work out, it didn't, so i quit, i submit, i acquiece, i acede, i stop, i capitulate. there are way too many of you and not enough of me. i regret ever posting here. what was i thinking..?

them: good question - what were you thinking? didn't you realize you were gonna get pounded from the beginning?

me: yes, i did. i thought i could plead my case better. i didn't relaize that i would be banished to pathetic-poster-wasteland so soon. too bad for me.

them: yes, too bad for you. begone!

and i am.

--marcus issoglio

 

corrected for yet another typo. my apologies to paul.

in any case, goodbye, y,all.

 

Ummm.. Marcus when you get a chance to take a deep breath and get a little perspective it might be worthwhile to reread this thread. You seem to assign the worst motives and intentions to others while thinking your perspective is the best and clearest. Setting up straw man arguments and then destroying them is not a good debate method. It would be better to make your case on its own merits. I truly think your opinion is totally valid and important. I do disagree with your conclusions. I like others have stated my reasons clearly and hopefully respectfully. You do hold an opinion that most (certainly not all) here would disagree with. Again I wish you well.

------------------
Best Regards,
Dave Hayden

 

LaSalle/Orion was proven to be a degree mill in a court of law. That does not mean that it was necessarily totally worthless to all students. It is not being close minded to say that in general sending money to LaSalle was not a good idea.

Let's try a little analogy. Someone might have gone to prison and was enriched by the experience. That does not mean that the rest of us are close minded if we suggest that going to prison is a bad thing even though it might have been a good thing for that one individual.

 

ok - how about i check my normal cynicism and skeptical attitude at the door for a moment and see if i can take this another direction.

(i do reserve the right to keep my opinions as previously stated above)

i am of the thought that many of the above posters know very well what they are talking about, even if the topic involved is profoundly sensitive for me. i think that's something everyone can understand.

so - orion is closing and i've been promised a transfer of credits and program (a school was mentioned that i'm not willing to release here as i imagine it will only cause the rift to widen). it was suggested above that such a transfer was not a good thing, either for the transferee or for me.

so what am i to do?

a thought occured to me. is it possible for the readers of this post to suggest a school i might apply to? i'd rather start all over (yes, i'm a few thousand in the hole right now, but what's money anyway? i have my health, a great wife and a beautiful son. life could be worse) and see what the big difference is. i tingle with anticiplation.

it has also been suggested above that DETC accredtation is the minimum. well, that's all i've found so far. i'd be interested to see what else there is.

i am in interested in pursuing a master's in health care service administration. i have a bachelor's in biology and have been working in middle management in a hospital for the last 10 years or so. i would like to move up another notch, and even though my competition is with mostly bachelor's degree holders, i am interested to get a "leg up." my gpa for my bachelor's was 3.0 - i have never taken the gre and don't particularly want to. i do not lean either way for a thesis - if i have to do one, i will. i'm think i would actually enjoy it.

so - what next? what school comes to mind? i need 100% non-resident or at the most a very minimal residiency requirement. remember - i am 100 miles from anywhere.

can i redeem myself? who knows, but i will keep y'all posted.

--marcus issoglio

 

What degree level and what field of study are you interested in?


Bruce

 

You know ... you've spent your money. You are NOT going to get that back. You claim that you learned somethng. I will not dispute that.

If the education you received helps you at all in life then you should be happy about that. The degree may not (or probably not depending on who does the review) help you in a job hunt. If that doesn't bother you then fine.

If you want a degree that helps you get a job then you'll have to go the accredited route ... eventually.

If it were self education then a library may have been cheaper. However you already spent your money so don't worry about it. Just move on ...

And yes ... there will be folks here who can recommend a fine acceptable school for you. Just tell us what it is exactly that you want.

Take care,
Ellis

 

Marcus,

You might want to check out the M.Sc. in Health Systems Management offered by the University of London. It is totally external. In the U.S.A., you take the exams at certain university testing centers. You may have to travel some distance for this if you are in the boonies, but the exam period is just once a year.

http://www.londonexternal.ac.uk/

I'm working on the M.Sc. in epidemiology through the University of London external programme (lead college: London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine), and I have been very pleased. It's not easy, but the degree will be worthwhile.

Best wishes in your search,

Alex