Oregon starts labelling "diploma mills"

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by [email protected], Mar 2, 2004.

Loading...
  1. Dennis Ruhl

    Dennis Ruhl member

    Re: Re: Marylanders are fine, but those New Yorkers are all crooked

    Let's see - 50 plus a few jurisdictions in the US, 13 in Canada. That's only two countries. How practical is reclassification?? I think Alberta should charge $400.00 per school to allow recognition. Harvard - that'll be 400 bucks.
     
  2. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Hey, Kennedy-Western is a "U"! According to the legend, "U" means that the ODA has insufficient information to judge but that the degrees are nevertheless illegal. Wonder why they didn't get an "S"?
     
  3. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    That’s great, Dennis; you've exceeded yourself. In one fell swoop you’ve managed to insult both the questioner and anyone who dare reply to his legitimate query. :rolleyes:
     
  4. Dennis Ruhl

    Dennis Ruhl member

    You noticed.

    You're good at grammar, which one is it?
     
  5. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Oh, now, the question wasn't REALLY legitimate! I should've put a grin on it!
     
  6. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    My guess is that on the surface, it might appear that KWU is on the "hairy edge" of 50% credits. You must keep in mind that no where I've ever found has KWU documented that they require 5-7 classes per degree. This is known only from the empirical evidence.

     
  7. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I'm a little puzzled about listing California Pacific University as a diploma mill while not listing California Coast University in the same manner. What possible evaluation could they have made to make that distinction? This kind of inconsistency continues to make this list suspect.
     
  8. ernie741

    ernie741 New Member

    You know, I'm waiting for Oregon to get themselves in real hot water with this list. When it is legitimately challenged, whoever does it is going to go for a bleed-out. Oregon, even though they are thinking that they are protected from reprisal because it's "in the state code", is moving along the fine edge of abuse of authority. I think we will all just sit back and watch the fireworks.
     
  9. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    I doubt it. How are they abusing authority such that the list makes Oregon vulnerable?
     
  10. ernie741

    ernie741 New Member

    BAsically they abuse the process. The list is arbitrary and seemingly capricious. Most state laws have provisions for such abuses. While I personally don't really care what Oregon does, I do feel bad for those graduates of legitimate schools (RA or not) that will be somewhat stuck with a stigma that their degree work is considered useless.
     
  11. galanga

    galanga New Member

    do you have an alternative set of criteria in mind?

    Hi Ernie,

    But they do define their criteria clearly, and do post links to Oregon Administrative Rules on the Oregon Secretary of State's site. So it seems to me that they have declared what their rules are, and then passed various non-RA organizations through the sort algorithm defined by their rules. I don't see how this might be unconstitutional, since it is in the province of the states to regulate post-secondary education.

    Do you have a "filter algorithm" in mind that might work well to decide whether or not a school's credentials should be legal in Oregon? It needs to be able to admit non-RA schools that are OK, but keep out enterprises which are bad, and lie about their practices. As I understand it, Oregon's policies require a non-RA school to demonstrate its methods satisfy the state's criteria before the school's degrees are legal, rather than allowing all schools' degrees to be used until particular schools are shown to be unsatisfactory. This is a reasonable, placing the burden on the schools rather than the ODA staff.

    I would be happy to see the state's neighbor-to-the-north taking a similar stance. There'd be a lot less silliness about degree-holding birds in various threads.

    G
     
  12. Police

    Police member

    Hello friends, sorry about my English.

    ! That man is crazy!

    Newport University a Mill? They offer J.D. that “ meets the requirements of the California Committee of Bar Examiners.” http://www.newport.edu/ :eek:

    Pacific Coast University a Mill? They offer also J.D. They are a good school. http://www.pculaw.com/history.php :eek:

    California Pacific University a Mill? This is one of the Best State Approved Universities in California:eek:

    Preston University a U? This people have Government Approbations in Pakistan. They are going to be in the International Book:eek:

    This office should prepare, because I fell that some degree granting institution that appears in that inventory, are going to present some juridical action against that man an his office.:mad:

    They are going to put some L by the side of some schools.

    L = Lawsuit :mad:

    PhD Pacific Western University (Criminal Justice)
    MA Caribbean University (Criminal Justice)
    BA American University of Puerto Rico (Criminal Justice)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 31, 2004
  13. Chip

    Chip Administrator

    <quote>
    ! That man is crazy!

    Newport University a Mill? They offer J.D. that “ meets the requirements of the California Committee of Bar Examiners.” http://www.newport.edu/

    Pacific Coast University a Mill? They offer also J.D. They are a good school. http://www.pculaw.com/history.php

    California Pacific University a Mill? This is one of the Best State Approved Universities in California

    Preston University a U? This people have Government Approbations in Pakistan. They are going to be in the International Book
    </quote>

    Now here we have some profound wisdom. Let's see....

    We're quoting Newport saying why Newport isn't a mill, and Pacific Coast saying why Pacific Coast isn't a mill. Gosh, I guess if a school says it's not a mill, it must not be a mill. That's certainly the Les Snell (Monticello U.) legitimacy plan.

    And then we're stating that Preston is a good school because they're in some way recognized by Pakistan authorities? Right. They're not rigorous enough to get any sort of approval in their home jurisdiction, so they go to some far-off country (which certainly isn't going to go through any sort of rigorous oversight) and bamboozle or otherwise convince authorities to grant some sort of governmental approval. It's cases like this that are the reason that inclusion in the International Handbook is no longer a GAAP-qualifying event. In other words, it's still a fraud.

    And Cal Pacific being one of the best state approved schools in CA? According to whom? Based on what criteria? Compared to what?

    Ah, these pesky details....
     
  14. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    I don't know. I have no idea of what the ODA knows about either the CA or HI versions of this thing.

    I don't consider the list "suspect". I kind of like it. I just wish that the ODA had ignored some of the foolish voices and left their list as it was.

    I always thought that simplicity was one of the strengths of the list. It was hard-nosed, sticking resolutely to the criteria set out in the OR statute and it didn't try to get cute.

    Now the ODA is attempting to classify the schools on its list and they are being loudly criticised for doing precisely what was being demanded of them just a short time ago.
     
  15. fnhayes

    fnhayes New Member

    If Bill, Bill & Chip ever feel the need to read some informed opinions about the ODA list they should read what the majority have to say about it on the other chanel.
    The facts are that the ODA list is not only seriously flawed it represents the totally uninformed and subjective opinions of one man - who many believe is right in the pocket of the DI self styled 'experts'.
    Dr Anatidae (Knightsbridge)
     
  16. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Are we talking about the same school? When did California Pacific University have a Hawaiian version?

    It matters that the ODA classifies some California-Approved schools one way and others another--without indicating at all how it made the distinction.

    Yes, I'm in favor of categorizing these schools, at least compared to the old way of implying some--but not identifying which--might be diploma mills. But it is still an inconsistent, largely unexplained, effort.

    California Pacific University a mill? But not all of the other California-Approved schools? Based upon what?
     
  17. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    As usual, you're wrong. Not about the ODA's stupid list, but that it's author is "in the pocket of DI." Have you any proof of this? This is a typical claim by you--can you support it?

    The whiners at CollegeHints complain about me getting Knightsbridge on the list, but ignore the fact that they got VIU on there first. (That anyone could do this shows the absurdity of the list itself, of course.)

    The opinions of a few degree mill shills should hardly be the measure of the value of the ODA's effort. I support the idea, but really criticize the results.

    As for Contreras being uninformed, I don't think that's the case.
     
  18. galanga

    galanga New Member

    I seek answers to simple questions

    Hi Dr. A,

    Is this the other "chanel" or do you mean this instead? And on what grounds do you say that "the ODA list is not only seriously flawed it represents the totally uninformed and subjective opinions of one man"?

    Also, who (besides you) is saying that Alan Contreras is likely to be in the pockets of "DI self styled 'experts'"?

    And, by the way, who are those experts, in whose pockets Contreras resides? For example, do you think I am one? How about John Bear? What about sammyspade? How about bill_0169?

    G
     
  19. MarkIsrael@aol.com

    [email protected] New Member

    Galanga asks FNHayes:

    > Is this the other "chanel" or do you mean this instead?

    FNHayes means CollegeHints.
    http://www.collegehints.com/boards/showthread.php?t=621

    > Also, who (besides you) is saying that Alan Contreras is likely
    > to be in the pockets of "DI self styled 'experts'"?


    That accusation was made by someone who goes by the handle "Dr Marianus". Marianus, like Hayes, has a doctorate from Knightsbridge University.
     
  20. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Innocent until proven guilty

    I disagree with Steve.

    Alas!

    I think the point here is that St. Kittsian accreditation appears to be unreliable.

    Even were Kittitian accreditation totally meaningless, I don't think that's the point.

    Let's say there's a developing country called Elbonistan where the government is lax. In fact, there's an infamous degree mill called Worcestershire University that operates from there with impunity because the Minister of Education is on their payroll. Let's say also that there's an Elbonistan Institute of Technology that is completely legitimate and has a vibrant distance learning program.

    Now let's say that I live in Oregon, and I have my Bachelor's from EIT. ODA is wrong to claim that because Elbonistani accreditation is useless that I'm a fraud for saying I have a Bachelor's degree. I shouldn't have to prove my school is good, they should have to prove it's bad, and location simply isn't good enough.

    I understand there's a "process" for getting off the list, but it's entirely unreasonable to expect a small foreign institution to pay protection money to every state and territority to avoid this sort of thing. It makes more sense for degree holders to be innocent until proven guilty.

    At the very least, if an institution or one of its degree holders sends a positive AACRAO or NACES-member transcript evaluation, an institution should be immediately removed from the "bad" list without having to pay a fee. Anything less is racketeering.

    -=Steve=-
     

Share This Page