Newburgh Seminary Upgrades Website

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Guest, Jul 12, 2004.

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  1. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    SBC

    I apologize if I seem critical . I want to assure you that my post is not to impugn anyone's character . I am only concerned with quality in the study of the Christian Religion.

    1- Do you have an accredited master's degree? If so, from where and in what? If you do not, did that have any bearing on your choice of school?

    2- and, do you think someone there at Newburgh Sem, without an accredited or GAAP doc in Systematic Theology, is really qualified to evaluate doctoral coursework in Systematic Theology [you mention readings in Bap Theo, of course, Syst Theo directly relates to that ]?? If you do, why do you think that?

    3-and, do you think one there at Newburgh w-out an accredited-GAAP doc in Historical Theology is qualified to supervise your doctoral studies in Patristics? If you do , why do you think that?

    Since Christian accreditors, themselves, that is qualified academicians even very conservative ones ,as the administrators of TRACS, think that accredited/GAAP docs are normally required, with only very rare and well-justified exceptions, to teach grad studies , even when the degree being earned is DMin, not PhD, why would anyone, ie those at Newburgh Sem, (or you, perhaps?) think such should not be required?

    Now, I'm not opposed at all to one somewhat designing his own course of studies. I sort of am doing that too! My UNIZUL promoter also is allowing me unusually great latitude. But my work is being judged informally, locally now by a prof of English in an accredited, RA, school for grammatics and by another prof of New Testament, at the same school, who has his doc from DTS, for theological/Biblical content. My work will also be formally and carefully evaluated by at least three other profs from three different public universities --all with accred/GAAP docs in the exact area of my study. My work must pass all these inspections by qualified individuals, and I must fix any problems in it.

    This is what IMO the culmination of doc work should be: A body of professors recognized in academe as qualified by experience in evaluating doctoral work and by having rigorous, formal, advanced education themselves in an area related to the study , and by scholarly , not popularly, published experience cognate to it as well, affirms that the candidate by his work has demonstrated his ability and knowledge at a doc level in the area of that study.

    But , who at Newburgh is qualified to evaluate your work in Systematic and Historical Theology and what qualifies him to do that?


    4- and, since you say cost , content, and DL are factors in your choice, and since the tuition at Newburgh is $1500 for that degree, and since the tuition for a ThD or DPhil in practical studies, your very area, at some GAAP schools, as UNIZUL, is actually LESS than that, and is WHOLLY doable by distance learning and in the very content of your preference too, although it must be done at genuine doc level under restrictions common to that, why would you choose a school which is held in such very low esteem by academe and where you even have to take pains to justify your own program as being more rigorous than what the school itself actually requires???
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 20, 2004
  2. SBCMan

    SBCMan New Member

    Greetings,

    Bill, let me try to answer your inquiries as fully as possible. Also, I will add a selection for NTS being my choice of schools at the end of these answers.

    1- Do you have an accredited master's degree? If so, from where and in what? If you do not, did that have any bearing on your choice of school?
    --No, my M.Div is through NTS and I am also pursuing one from LRS-at a substantially low number of courses per year (usually just one). I have a bachelor's from SBTS and did a year of study with them at the graduate level.

    2- and, do you think someone there at Newburgh Sem, without an accredited or GAAP doc in Systematic Theology, is really qualified to evaluate doctoral coursework in Systematic Theology [you mention readings in Bap Theo, of course, Syst Theo directly relates to that ]?? If you do, why do you think that?
    --If we are talking doctoral work at the Ph.D level, then no-and, I have mentioned my gripe with this to the president. If we are talking D.Min, then yes. My reason for saying this is that my D.Min work is not evaluated by research per se, but by practical applications. In other words, my course that deals with theology/history are not especially designed to pursue theology by itself, but practical theology. Also, the answers after this my help to clarify the issue.

    3-and, do you think one there at Newburgh w-out an accredited-GAAP doc in Historical Theology is qualified to supervise your doctoral studies in Patristics? If you do , why do you think that?
    --Good question and again I would say no. Now, speaking solely for myself, I have a cohort of professors and pastors that I review my work with. This is not required by NTS, but I find it very beneficial. Although Drs. Mollette, Christmas and Prickett are fine theologians (in my opinion) I also have some prof's from Southern that will review my dissertation before it is submitted, and also aid in the process as I go along. Those profs of Drs. Draper, Brand and Cabal (you can look on SBTS's website to see their credentials).

    Since Christian accreditors, themselves, that is qualified academicians even very conservative ones ,as the administrators of TRACS, think that accredited/GAAP docs are normally required, with only very rare and well-justified exceptions, to teach grad studies , even when the degree being earned is DMin, not PhD, why would anyone, ie those at Newburgh Sem, (or you, perhaps?) think such should not be required?
    --No, Bill, I do think it should be required. I believe with every ounce of my being that it should be beefed up (although, just for reference, some of the NTS prof's have overseen doctoral work at RA schools as well as unaccredited schools). I remember when I mentioned this to Dr. Mollette, he said, "You are the first person I have ever heard complain that academic requirements and the teachers requirements aren't stringent enough!" Honestly, I hope and pray that NTS will eventually develop (as many DL schools do) into an academically rigorous, soundly doctrinal school. But, I confess, she is not there yet-not by a long shot. If one is to do studies at NTS, they really have to make their program stand in their own integrity. But, we can only hope in the future this will change.

    Now, I'm not opposed at all to one somewhat designing his own course of studies. I sort of am doing that too! My UNIZUL promoter also is allowing me unusually great latitude. But my work is being judged informally, locally now by a prof of English in an accredited, RA, school for grammatics and by another prof of New Testament, at the same school, who has his doc from DTS, for theological/Biblical content. My work will also be formally and carefully evaluated by at least three other profs from three different public universities --all with accred/GAAP docs in the exact area of my study. My work must pass all these inspections by qualified individuals, and I must fix any problems in it.
    (Yes, as mentioned above, I am doing this as well, but it is not required of NTS. I think it should be and hope someday it will be.)

    This is what IMO the culmination of doc work should be: A body of professors recognized in academe as qualified by experience in evaluating doctoral work and by having rigorous, formal, advanced education themselves in an area related to the study , and by scholarly , not popularly, published experience cognate to it as well, affirms that the candidate by his work has demonstrated his ability and knowledge at a doc level in the area of that study.
    (I completely agree)

    But , who at Newburgh is qualified to evaluate your work in Systematic and Historical Theology and what qualifies him to do that? (see above)

    4- and, since you say cost , content, and DL are factors in your choice, and since the tuition at Newburgh is $1500 for that degree, and since the tuition for a ThD or DPhil in practical studies, your very area, at some GAAP schools, as UNIZUL, is actually LESS than that, and is WHOLLY doable by distance learning and in the very content of your preference too, although it must be done at genuine doc level under restrictions common to that, why would you choose a school which is held in such very low esteem by academe and where you even have to take pains to justify your own program as being more rigorous than what the school itself actually requires???
    Well, here is where it becomes a little more personal for me. First, my tuition was much less than the current tuition. And secondly, (I hope only to share my heart with this), I found that for me personally, I was not at a place that I could gain a degree, accredited, and not have a huge pride issue. I believe I would always look down on folks that didn't have an accredited degree. Now, if I come to the place that I come overcome that pride and the Lord blesses with the resources and availibility to do an accredited degree, I probably will, so long as it has a direct benefit to my ministry. Don't get me wrong, there are probably many, many people who can earn accredited degrees and not have pride issues (your probably one of them)-sadly, humbly and honestly, right now I'm not one of them.
    Also, I believe many pastors could benefit from DL education that is unaccredited and affordable. NTS is not quite there yet and if you have followed me in this thread, you know why I believe it is not there yet. I really want to help reform the school so that pastors can have a chance. Going into the school, I believe the requirements were going to be much more rigorous than what they were (with my M.Div). But no, and Dr. Mollette agreed to try and reform the school with academic stringence. Only time will tell, and with other DL schools like TTS, LRS and maybe some others, they started out weak and are now very strong. Let's pray that can happen with NTS.

    Thanks for the chat, my friend and be blessed today in the grace of Christ!
     
  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    SBC has presented one of the most honest, straight-forward, frank posts ever presented on this forum by someone in an unaccredited theological institution. Kudos!








     
  4. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Boasting of one's humility strikes the old Carpathian as strange.

    My heartstrings are tugged, but not much.

    Bill has laid out the case for alternative approaches better than I could have done. His UNIZUL is a good option for you. Dr Song is IIRC a Baptist and a very distinguished scholar. And it's CHEAP!

    Jimmy, Bethany-of-Dothan (yup, you heard me right) has this outfit beat, as it does the execrable, laughable, Sunday-school-booklet-doc-marketed-to-exceptionally-low-grade-pious-sectarians MDS. How could you commend MDS? Corrupt Trinity has both of these beat dead to rights--even if they own MDS and NBS is a schismatic spinoff!

    SBC, go get your MDiv from Luther Rice. That's respectable and honorable. I am afraid you are wasting your money (and kidding yourself about your lowliness of mind) by getting a doctorate at this outfit. Once you get your TRACS-accredited MDiv---and who on earth ever heard of doing a DMin concurrently, when it builds on the MDiv?---then go to a substandard school if you must or a legit South African school if you can hack it academically. Better you should write off your "investment" than keep wasting your time.

    Who knows? With an accredited MDiv, you might return in triumph on a scholarship to SBTS. With a silly abbreviation (I cannot before Jupiter Stator and all the gods call it a doctorate) you will just look silly to the kindly and corrupt to the cynical.

    You are clearly an intelligent person with a desire to learn. Most of us here have made false starts in wrong directions with this or that school, and (sooner or later or even very much later) amended our ways. I can't applaud what you are presently doing, but I wish you well in your future studies.

    Vale.
     
  5. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Salve!

    I keep hoping Bethany will make the necessary improvements in curriculum and faculty that it needs to.

    Is it correct that after the first of the year SA schools will no longer subsidize foreign students and the tuition will increase tremendously?
     
  6. flipkid

    flipkid New Member

    First of all I wish you all the best. I am one that has been in the same position as you and faced with similar economic choices. Below is a post that I made on this forum almost two years ago about my attempt to reform a deficent school that was helping ministers who like me could not afford it. Please feel free to PM me or e-mail me and we can talk about it in depth. That way we will not take the thread too far off topic.

    Flipkid

     
  7. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

     
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    FOR SBCMAN

    I see you tried to PM me. Try now. I got a message my inbox was full. I only had six messages in it? I deleted them so you should get through. If not, email me at [email protected]
     
  9. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    Bill, let me try to answer your inquiries as fully as possible. Also, I will add a selection for NTS being my choice of schools at the end of these answers.

    1- Do you have an accredited master's degree? If so, from where and in what? If you do not, did that have any bearing on your choice of school?

    --No, my M.Div is through NTS and I am also pursuing one from LRS-at a substantially low number of courses per year (usually just one). I have a bachelor's from SBTS and did a year of study with them at the graduate level.

    ===


    Then you would have some difficulty any way in entering an accredited/GAAP doc with an unaccredited masters. Is that why you chose NTS? Are all of your reasons for choosing NTS, then, over an accredited program , just rationalizations?

    ===

    2- and, do you think someone there at Newburgh Sem, without an accredited or GAAP doc in Systematic Theology, is really qualified to evaluate doctoral coursework in Systematic Theology [you mention readings in Bap Theo, of course, Syst Theo directly relates to that ]?? If you do, why do you think that?


    If we are talking doctoral work at the Ph.D level, then no-and, I have mentioned my gripe with this to the president. If we are talking D.Min, then yes. My reason for saying this is that my D.Min work is not evaluated by research per se, but by practical applications. In other words, my course that deals with theology/history are not especially designed to pursue theology by itself, but practical theology. Also, the answers after this my help to clarify the issue.


    ===


    I still disagree and so do Conservative Christian educators as the TRACS folks. Where a DMin program includes Theological Studies, then that segment should be taught by those having PhDs/ThDs in Theological Studies.

    Your personal program lists a major as "SBC Theology." The clearly stated objective is to gain a **'superb' knowledge of SBC Theology**. Therefore, we are not just talking about application!

    That, acquisition of 'superb knowledge' IMO, should be supervised by one with an accredited/GAAP doc in Theology. It appears to me that you're rationalizing when you counter that you are not pursuing the knowledge of Theology .

    But it's your choice ; we all make our choices.


    ===



    4- and, since you say cost , content, and DL are factors in your choice, and since the tuition at Newburgh is $1500 for that degree, and since the tuition for a ThD or DPhil in practical studies, your very area, at some GAAP schools, as UNIZUL, is actually LESS than that, and is WHOLLY doable by distance learning and in the very content of your preference too, although it must be done at genuine doc level under restrictions common to that, why would you choose a school which is held in such very low esteem by academe and where you even have to take pains to justify your own program as being more rigorous than what the school itself actually requires???


    Well, here is where it becomes a little more personal for me. First, my tuition was much less than the current tuition.

    ===

    Even if the NTS tuition were FREE, is UNIZUL still not the better deal at a mere $1000???? This seems to be another rationalization.

    ===

    And secondly, (I hope only to share my heart with this), I found that for me personally, I was not at a place that I could gain a degree, accredited, and not have a huge pride issue.

    ===

    Then why get a degree whereby you are called "Doctor" ?? This appears to be yet more rationalization!

    I do commend you for trying to get NTS to be more responsible in its expectations. But I will observe that it is customary for a school to teach rigor to the student , not the student to teach rigor to a school.

    I certainly would not want my doctorate to be from a school that I had to coax into being rigorous. Yet, it's your life and your choice. And, I wish you God's best.
     
  10. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Hi Jimmy:

    Re SA tuition increases--please document this or state that it is speculation on your part.

    Re Bethany-of-Dothan. My criticisms from long ago mostly remain. However, Bethany represents a "substandard" school rather than a mere joke. They have done things that are plainly wrong, but they do offer actual instruction that is a clearly a cut above the absolutely stupid stuff outlined at this current "school" or at Masters Divinity. In other words, I can't endorse B-o-D, but I can readily conceive of remediation. I can happily recognize your doc from B-o-D as real, though substandard.

    The present school seems to exist for the sole purpose of handing out degree abbreviations, enabling the ostentatiously humble to boast of their humility--if our friend is so durn humble why does he need other folks to call him "doctor"?--and apparently serving a niche market: folks in the orbit of the Southern Baptist Convention with a good dose of Nietzschean ressentiment against its institutions.

    Money spent at "Newburgh" would be better spent on books, and time spent there on disciplined reading. Our friend could easily enough secure the reading lists for MDiv or DMin courses from reputable SBC seminaries, and by the guttering candle attain mastery of the material, all on his own. (I know the praxis part of sem would be missing, but first things first, in this case.)
    You can buy lotsa books for the cost of a so-called degree from "Newburgh." And think how 'umble one would be! Positively Dickensian!

    I don't mind giving our friend a bit of a zetz im kop since he's already admitted to the worthwhile MDiv program at Luther Rice. He should drop this other crap and get that done--unless his humility requires the doctorate more than all else. Bill calls it coaxing into rigor; I call it something that looks (who can know?) like a guilty conscience or an exercise in c.y.a., with verbal protestations of virtue designed to get him off the hook with a fairly gullible Lord.
     
  11. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Uncle Janko,

    I couldn't remember where I heard this so I did a couple searches on some DL forums and found this from ECRAIG on DI:

    I haven't seen anything about tuition increases on the UNIZUL or SATS sites.
     
  12. SBCMan

    SBCMan New Member

    Bill,

    Thanks for wishing me the best in the Lord, I really and truly appreciate that.

    Also, UNIZUL, which I am assuming to mean "University of Zululand," seems to be an awesome choice of schools. I never had heard of them until I saw you mention them. I am glad you are having good studies with them. You are a testimony to them.

    Thanks for your input and evaluations, they have been helpful.

    Blessings to you in Christ!
     
  13. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    ===

    And to you.

    Good "luck" in your studies, though we disagree over where you should be.

    We who love Jesus should find a bonding that is higher than education. I think He helps me in so many ways. Yesterday and today as I took my daily diabetic walk, in which I'm becoming very proficient BTW, I fell to the chant " I-LOVE- JE-SUS" vocalizing a syllable with each step, you see. Each step became a prayer!

    It makes the heat and the sweat and the weariness not just endurable but enjoyable too.

    I just wish that I did more exercise and ate less and studied more in my youth. Then it would not be so hard to do them now.

    Blessings on your studies.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2004
  14. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Jimmy: Thanks for the clarification. The situation is worth monitoring.
     
  15. SBCMan

    SBCMan New Member

    Bill,

    I notice in your degree list you did some work with Western Seminary. I had heard at one time they had a DL program where you could earn credits toward (or maybe earn the degree, not for sure) your masters. I was just wondering if you did any work in that program and how it was?

    For Christ's Glory
     
  16. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    ===

    I was "away" from God from about 1975 to 1990. When I "came back" I wanted to study Theology some more. After a lengthy interview with several there, God bless Rob Wiggins (Registrar) and Bob Cook (then, Director ThM Program) , Western took the MA from Point Loma as one year and the EdD coursework as a second year toward the MDiv equivalency . So, I only had around 34 more semester units to do for the MDiv equivalency. Still, that took me two years part time as I was school teaching full-time and also interim pastoring. . Then, the ThM from Western took another two years. Some of the coursework, about 1/5, I did by DL.

    At Western one may do 2/3 of the MDiv by DL. This much lowers the cost of tuition. Doing it this way, which BTW many RA schools with ATS accreditation as well allow , means that one could spend a couple of summers at Western and thus fulfill the residential requirement.

    IMO Western taught me well. I just this afternoon kept my appointment with my local, informal reader. He has his PhD from Dallas Theological Seminary. He is a tenured prof at an RA school. He was very complimentary today about the last chapter saying that my thinking on that topic [The Hypostatic Union} was better expressed in that chapter than his own twice-published views on the same issue.

    If I only had him to please, I'd be assured of the degree. My South African Committee, however, may be harder to satisfy--we'll see in five months if they are.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 22, 2004
  17. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Then I owe you a HUGE apology!

    I accused you, several month's ago, of referring to me as "Dr. Clifton," out of derision and mockery. I am sorry!

    While Bethany is certainly not on par with accredited seminaries, I am not sure I can call the program in counseling substandard.

    The theology department needs vast improvement, I agree. I really wish they would have a language department if nothing else but elementary Hebrew and Greek. At least that would be a start.

    I say the counseling program wasn't substandard because of my own personal experience with the program. I was able to pass the National Clinical Mental Health Counselor's Exam on my first try when friends of mine with RA accredited degrees in psychology, counseling, marriage and family therapy, social work, etc., failed.

    I don't know what this means, exactly, but I feel like I did receive a good pastoral counseling education at Bethany. I would like to see some RA or NA faculty on staff with degrees in one of the behavioral sciences to lend the program more credibility.

    It is my hope Bethany's undergrad program will come up to the standards for possible accreditation by the Association for Biblical Higher Education (FKA AABC) and eventually the grad programs will come up to the accreditation standards of the ABHE also. Time will tell.
     
  18. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    If they start doing the things you mention, it will be a good sign.
    If their pastoral counseling program is as good as you say it is, then they have a point of strength to build upon in remediating their deficiencies.

    I would be glad, also, to see a very brief statement on their website dissociating themselves from Bethany-of-Richmond. The names are exceedingly close and, however, erm, humble the pie may be, the lesser (and lesser-known) school needs to take the initiative in such cases of confusion.

    That this brief discussion about B-o-D is even possible, let alone plausible, illustrates the difference between a substandard school and a plain joke, and how great a gulf is fixed betwixt 'em.

    Notice also that we needn't agree with B-o-D's theology in order to praise or criticise it with accuracy (since neither of us do agree with their theology). THAT is a methodological point that crieth out from the ground for all to understand. :cool:
     
  19. Pastor Dave

    Pastor Dave New Member

    Great Programs. Relevant, Self-Paced

    You get out of a program what you put into the program.
    Traditional or non-traditional study are only different opportunities
    for application. You can attend a three year traditional school, take
    notes and pass tests for three years and still not learn a lot. You may not learn as much if you are going at a neck breaking speed to write and study for
    exams. Studying at your own pace with some flexibility provides an opportunity to learn and grow.
     
  20. Pastor Dave

    Pastor Dave New Member

    Great Program - Great Opportunity

    Newburgh has been a great program that has helped me develop into a daily student of God's word.
     

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