MIGS & ODA

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Guest, Apr 30, 2001.

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  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    This may have been previously posted and if so excuse the redundancy. Apparently, Oregon's ODA is in the process of trying to determine the status of MIGS with appropriate authorities. It will be interesting to see the outcome of that.
    http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.html

    North
     
  2. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    There is nothing to indicate that he (not they) is doing anything to answer that question. I was dismayed that he knee-jerked and put MIGS on the board without checking first, then took it down, then put up a statement saying he was checking. Seems like he could have done his homework first.

    Having said that, I just enjoyed a chat with him. He simply wants to know two things: (1) That MIGS is operating legally in Florida (and Texas, but he thinks MIGS will fold that tent), and (2) that the CEU is indeed authorized by the Mexican government to award the doctorate. He is awaiting MIGS's approval to operate an office in Florida, and has written the Mexican authorities for a direct answer from them (which he has not yet received).

    This is not "much ado about nothing," however. I'm convinced the Oregon official is sincere and is exercising due diligence. In fact, I'd like to see some independent evidence of the two items above myself.

    Rich Douglas
     
  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Rich,

    It appears you had a nice conversation with him [​IMG] Hopefully he will draw that to a conclusion as soon as possible.

    I noticed on MIGS web site that it states that the Secretary of Education approves the individual degree plan & issues the diplomas. Is this normal process in Mexico?
    http://www.degree.com/vice_rector.htm

    North

     
  4. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I am told this is routine, yes. It has nothing to do with MIGS, but with the Mexican higher education system. I think it was Carlos, though, that questioned the need for this, since CEU was an autonomous university. Still, it sounds like it's in order.

    Rich Douglas
     
  5. Caballero Lacaye

    Caballero Lacaye New Member

    Hello, Rich!

    Yes, the SEP or "Secretaría de Educación Pública" ("Secretariat of Public Education") only deals with the recognition process of governmental institutions. CEU is a private university, so I don't understand what they are doing there.

    Autonomous universities in México get registered with ANUIES or "Asociación Nacional de Universidades e Institutos de Educación Superior" ("National Association of Universities and Institutes of Higher Education"). I understand that CEU is a member of ANUIES, but if MIGS is looking for recognitition by SEP, then I deduce that MIGS is not a member of ANUIES. It shouldn't be hard to become a member of ANUIES, though. But again, I don't understand the logic of approaching SEP.

    On related note, the "Secretariat of Public Education" is a department with different functions of the government of Mexico. It is not a lone person. For this reason, the actual "secretary" doesn't necessarily have to sign a document to grant approval of universities. It could be another person or, more commonly, a commitee. By the same token, in other Latin American countries, a "Ministry of Education" is not a lone person, it is a governmental department with its respective "minister". I tend to think to people on this group sometimes confuse these terms.

    Cordially yours,


    Karlos Alberto Lacaye, who is still interested in polishing up his translation skills via distance education.
    [email protected]
     
  6. Neil Hynd

    Neil Hynd New Member

    Hi,

    I do wonder at (to quote from their site) "ODA does not evaluate the quality of an institution unless the institution applies for Oregon authorization."

    Does anyone believe that the listed organisations have applied to be authorized by Oregon ODA ?

    I don't.

    This has all the signs of an over-zealous local government official extending his own authority single-handedly.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong !

    Regards,

    Neil

     
  7. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    The ODA website seems pretty clear about what it is doing:

    The following are some of the institutions whose degrees cannot legally be used in Oregon because the institutions are not accredited by an accrediting agency recognized by the U.S. Department of Education or approved by ODA. See ORS 348.609.

    ...ODA does not evaluate the quality of an institution unless the institution applies for Oregon authorization.


    No. That's why they are on the list. They have not applied to the ODA for an exemption from the statute.

    I see no reason to think that Mr. Contreras is doing anything other than what the law instructs his office to do. So I think that you are wrong.
     
  8. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    Rich:

    Was this routine procedure followed in your case? Did the Secretary of education approve and sign your learning contract? Did you receive a copy of this signed contract? Who are the members of your Academic Supervising Committee?

    Sorry about all the personal questions, but at this juncture, the only information, and hence, the only way MIGS can hope to establish any credibility at all, is through the personal experiences of those involved in the program.

    Being that you are the only person involved with MIGS that posts on this or any other forum (except for one or two students in MIGS own lounges, who appear to be as much in the dark as the rest of us) that has any information to share, any help would be appreciated.

    Thanks,

    Gus Sainz
     
  9. Caballero Lacaye

    Caballero Lacaye New Member


    Hello, Gus!

    I think that there is no need for Rich to respond to all of your questions unless he wants to. He has reponded them repeatedly, so I try to help Rich in this sense. Of course, Rich might elaborate on a point of importance to him.

    As a said earlier, the actual "minister" does not specifically recognize operations of universities. This is done at the "ministry" which is a department of the Mexican government. The recognition process is usually done by committees who may have or may not have the actual "minister" as president. The actual "minister" can delegate responsibilites to other people or groups of people.

    CEU is a recognized university in Mexico. It is a member of ANUIES. MIGS is the distance learning wing of CEU which, according to Rich, is also recognized. CEU is listed on the UNESCO books and alike and, as such, it meets GAAP.

    I don't know about Rich's advisory committee, but I know that Dr. John Bear is one of them.

    Hopefully, Rich will help you clarify any other specific points.

    Kindly yours,


    Karlos Alberto "El Caballero" Lacaye
    [email protected]
     
  10. bing

    bing New Member

     
  11. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    My understanding is that the review occurs after the program is complete, not at the Learning Contract phase. My contract was accepted by the VP for Academic Affairs, Bruce Forman, who signed it. I don't know if a copy was or should have been forwarded beyond MIGS/CEU for approval. I'll be very interested in seeing the results after I submit my dissertation. (Who signs what, who issues the diploma and transcript, and all that. MIGS has never published guidance to students about this process. They're not on record, but I feel they should be.)

    My committee's Chair is John Bear. One member is Armando Arias. The other is still up in the air. There's been some serious dispute with MIGS about this. John and I have both posted remarks on this board about the ongoing frustrations we've had about this and other matters.

    I will report how things go as they go, good or bad. What's been frustrating is that when I say something supportive or positive, suddenly I'm the MIGS butt-boy. When I'm critical, my criticsms tend to get ignored. The fact is, many people have already made up their minds. I'm pretty close to the situation, and while I've drawn some conclusions, I'm not sure about the whole thing yet.


    Rich Douglas
     
  12. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Yes. The listing is specifically for the CEU in Monterrey, as is the listing in the World Education Series by PIER. The CEU in Monterrey is not affiliated with the other CEUs in Latin America.

    Rich Douglas
     
  13. Neil Hynd

    Neil Hynd New Member

    Bill,

    The site doesn't say institutes should apply for exclusion.

    It says: "ODA does not evaluate the quality of an institution unless the institution applies for Oregon authorization."

    Could it be any clearer ?

    In which case, if the institutes concerned have not applied, what are they doing there ?

    That's my point.

    Cheers,

    Neil

     
  14. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    My concern wasn't whether or not MIGS should eventually be on the list, but that it was premature to list, de-list, then sorta-list them. And as Neil points out, the board is a bit self-contradictory. On the one hand, it says schools aren't evaluated unless they apply. Then it bans a bunch of schools that didn't apply. I spoke with Alan at ODA, and this is how I think it goes:

    Unaccredited schools are verboten to operate in Oregon, unless they apply and are evaluated. Conceivably, a good, unaccredited school could be evaluated by Oregon and not be placed (or removed if placed) on the board.

    But the list is hardly comprehensive, nor will it ever be. Things move much too fast for that. They (he) would be better off banning categories of schools rather than individual schools. Of course, they (he) would still have to have some method of evaluating the exceptions to the rule, assuming they even bothered to apply. (CCU doesn't seem too ruffled over this, and the operate in the state next door.)

    I told Alan that I look forward to what he finds out about MIGS. If he determines independently what he's been told by MIGS and the CEU, he'll drop the reference to MIGS. But he's waited more than a month for an answer to his query to the Mexican authorities (a query he made in both English and Spanish--way cool [​IMG] ).

    What Alan lists or doesn't list isn't all that important in and of itself. But like the spotted owl, it is an indicator of something much larger and important. He seems like an honest and ernest fellow; what he finds out about MIGS will be of benefit to all interested parties.

    Rich Douglas
     
  15. Guest

    Guest Guest

    This is not true in everyone's eyes Rich. Some have taken you to task, this is true, however, others have taken a wait and see approach. CEU certainly meets GAAP criteria, and as such is a credible institution.

    All innovative programs face the "Wrath of Khan" so to speak. Nova, Union, Touro, etc., all have had their critics at one time or another, and some still do. Personally, I hope the MIGS option becomes another solid option for distance learners. [​IMG]

    Russell
     
  16. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    It prohibits degrees granted by institutions that are not accredited by a USDoE recognized accreditor, unless that institution is approved by the ODA. The text reads:

    The following are some of the institutions whose degrees cannot legally be used in Oregon because the institutions are not accredited by an accrediting agency recognized by the U.S. Department of Education or approved by ODA. See ORS 348.609.

    They lack accreditation recognzed by the US Department of Education. So under the terms of the statute they are prohibited.

    They could ask to be excluded from that blanket prohibition by applying to the ODA for its approval. But as you point out, the ODA isn't going to evaluate a school unless they are asked to do so. In these cases the schools either haven't requested approval or else were turned down.
     
  17. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    As I understand it, that is exactly what they doing. They exclude degrees from all schools not accredited by a US DoE recognized accreditor, unless the school has asked for and received Oregon approval.

    The text on the site reads:

    This is by no means an exhaustive list of institutions whose degrees cannot be used in Oregon. It is a list of those most recently reported.

    There is no implication that all institutions that do not appear on the list are legal in Oregon. I noticed that Earlscroft is not on the list, for example. Mr. Contreras is not banning individual schools. He is just listing schools that he has checked out and verified do not meet Oregon's statutory requirements. That way he is not asked about the same schools over and over.
     
  18. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    As you've probably read, I agree with this interpretation. However, the ODA is going to run into Constitutional issues if it persists in attempting to ban the use of degrees from some of these schools. Equal protection under the law will play havoc with banning degrees from state-approved schools, as Florida found out. Maybe the law can be written very narrowly and specifically to avoid this. Here's the dangerous scenario:

    An Oregonian real estate agent earns an MBA from California Coast University, and begins listing the credential in his promotional materials. The feeling here would be that the perceived prestige of such a degree would add credibility to the agent, possibly helping to influence sales. Someone gets wind of this and passes the information to the Oregonian Gestapo, uh, er, authorities, who move to stop the agent from doing this. The agent counters with the fact that the degree is from a school with legal authority to operate, authority comparable to what a school in Oregon would have: approval/authorization/licensure/whatever. On what basis does Oregon stipulate that the CCU degree is somehow not credible and should be banned? No way. Oregon doesn't even have a process comparable to California's. The real estate agent would argue that Oregon didn't know what it was doing, and that Oregon's approval was of no higher authority than California's. The real estate agent is being treated unequally under the law compared to citizens in the other 49 states regarding an issue (the use of higher education credentials) that is clearly beyond the scope of Oregon's jurisdiction.

    This kind of stuff is a direct result of the lack of a federal authority to perform this function. The Civil Rights movement didn't take hold in the South until the Feds got involved. Left to the states, we'd likely still have segregation in some of them. I'm betting that Oregon's rules will have to change regarding the usage of degrees. Whether they can stop out-of-state schools from enrolling students in Oregon, well, how about restraint of trade?

    Rich Douglas
     
  19. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    I am a strong supporter of the Oregon law, but like Rich I am not convinced that it would survive court challenge.

    But I don't think that the problem would necessarily be their refusal to accept state-approved schools from outside Oregon. There are already any number of state licensing laws that specify accreditation and assorted criteria in one state that may not be required in another state. Teaching, psychologist's licensing and bar admission are examples. States have the right and the power to make those kinds of laws.

    Except for he fact that CCU has authorization in California, not Oregon. Oregon has no responsibility to accept California's local authorizations as binding in Oregon. If California criminalized some form of behavior, it would not be a defence for a defendant to argue in court that because the behavior is legal in Texas it has to be accepted in California as well.

    Because the school is not accredited by an accreditor approved by the USDoE as required by the Oregon statute.

    Isn't that kind of elitist? I have more respect for the American people than that.

    It's not a restraint of trade for Salt Lake City to exclude casinos that are all legal and state-approved down the road in Las Vegas. Personally, I like the idea of keeping a bit of diversity alive and letting people decide what they want.

    I share some doubts about the workability of this Oregon law, but my doubts revolve more around what "use" means in the phrase 'using a degree', and in how this kind of law could ever be enforced.

    I wonder if bragging about your "degree" at a party with a drink in your hand is illegal in Oregon. What if somebody is impressed? What if he or she offers you a job? It sounds unenforceable to me.

    I would oppose "degree-police" swooping down on people. But I do like the idea of this kind of law being passively on the books, for use in lawsuits and other court cases. If somebody with a fake degree is ever sued for some tort like negligence, the status of the degree is already determined by law and wouldn't have to be litigated. So there would be no need to fly in Dr. Bear as an expert witness to discredit someone's degree. It's already determined by Oregon statute to be illegal.
     
  20. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    Some very excellent points that I agree with.

    I think a very big difference between the Florida Statute and the Oregon law is that the Oregon law has an exception clause. For example, someone could claim a degree from Bob Jones in Oregon but not under the old law in Florida. My understanding of the reason for the Florida Supreme Court striking down the law is that it didn't have any possible exception.
     

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