Medical Fraud- Another Clayton Grad up to no good

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by b4cz28, Jul 9, 2017.

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  1. b4cz28

    b4cz28 New Member

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    Really surprised a website that claims to verify its members let this slip by.

    Seems like they missed a few. This guy even has a fake state license number at the bottom. Worst part if they have zero ways to report him as being a fraud. He also seems to be practicing a medicine without a license. He lists Clayton and another school I've never heard of.

    https://therapists.psychologytoday.com/rms/prof_detail.php?profid=267988&ref=8&sid=1499627755.1208_8591&city=Conroe&county=Montgomery&state=TX&tr=ResultsName
     
  2. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

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    He is calling himself a Pastoral Counselor. One would need to know the requirements for this in Texas before you could say he's doing something illegal. Of course, Clayton is crap regardless.

    I recently had a ummm-conversation with Jan on a similar subject. I was maintaining that it would be possible, and legal, to practice Sports Psychology without appropriate credentials simply by calling yourself a Sports Consultant or a Performance Consultant or something of that sort. Jan maintained that this would be contrary to professional ethics. My response was to point out that this would only apply if 1) the person belonged to such a professional group and 2) felt constrained by those ethics. This sort of argument might also apply to this man you've discovered. He may not be using to Clayton paper to practice Pastoral Counseling but more as a garnish for his resume. On the other hand, he may be flagrantly violating the law. I'm not sure.
     
  3. b4cz28

    b4cz28 New Member

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    I believe that the pastoral counseling stuff is BS. Of course your pastor should be able to help you spiritually ...I doubt he should help you with chronic pain lol.

     
  4. Johann

    Johann Active Member

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    I'm not on this guy's side, but I'd bet b4cz28 a whole dollar that the number shown is not, in fact, a "fake state license" - and certainly not a genuine state license, either. I've been through all the blurbs I could find, with a fine-tooth comb (no longer needed - I'm bald). The only "license" I could find associated with this guy is this: he's "licensed," he says, by an outfit called the Pastoral Medical Institute, as a "Doctor of Pastoral Science." Here it is: The Pastoral Medical Institute. https://pmai.us/ I have no idea if there's any official status or whatever to this thing. I suspect the number in the Psych. Today ad. is his "license number" from the PMI.

    This guy says he's now a "Doctor" of Natural Medicine" as of last month. There's a blurb below on him from another business. The Pan-American University where he got some of his degrees has locations in Nevis and Ecuador. They hint that they're setting up some courses in Tampa Fl. I believe once upon a time they may have had an operation in Chicago. No sign I could see of any recognized accreditation. Check this link:

    Dr. Mark

    BTW - the PMA says on-site that its members do not practice medicine, i.e. they don't diagnose, prescribe drugs etc. No comment from me.

    J.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2017
  5. Johann

    Johann Active Member

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    Noticed this on the link:

    "Vocationally/Ministerially, (this guy) is a member of the Sacred Medical Order of the Church of Hope (SMOCH), formally/historically known as SMOKH (the Sovereign Medical Order of the Knights Hospitaller)---ordained in the health ministry of SMOCH."

    What have they been SMOKH-ING? Here's another possible avenue to Knighthood for you, Kizmet. I know you have an interest in that kind of thing. :smile:

    J.
     
  6. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

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    Psychology Today was one of the main places that flagrant diploma mills advertised in the 80s and 90s. I tugged on their sleeve many times, but never any response.

    Johann: "...a member of the Sacred Medical Order of the Church of Hope (SMOCH)..."

    John: I believe they plan to change to the Sacred Medical On-line Order of the Church of Hope.
     
  7. Johann

    Johann Active Member

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    Do they, now? Then they can S.M.O.O.C.H on this... :moon:

    J.
     
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  8. Stanislav

    Stanislav Active Member

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    They have a bundle deal for a "Noble title plus a doctorate". Limited time only!
    Interesting spin: they talk about "Holistic/Monastic" medicine and "sacerdotal" healing. "Sacredot" is Latin for "priest". They sound like a vagante Independent Catholic group (even calling themselves a "Diocese"), but it breaks down because they talk of an "investiture" rather than "ordination" or "Holy Orders", and don't say anywhere who's their Bishop (if any). Also, they have a picture (and link) to a "House of Prayer"; that place appears to be an Episcopal church in Florida that doesn't mention any "SMOKH" on it's site. At least His Serene Highness Most Reverend Professor John Kersey had the decency to build his own chapel in his own back yard.
     
  9. Johann

    Johann Active Member

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    I forget -- is it white SMOKH or black SMOKH when they choose a new head um...Sacerdos, I think, is the correct Latin singular - or Sacerdote in English. Blue SMOKH = burning oil, right? :smile:

    J.
     
  10. b4cz28

    b4cz28 New Member

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    I reported him to the Texas medical board. They told me he's already been charged lol. He has a hearing coming up. She said he is in violation for multiple parts of the law.

    Texas Medical Board

    I did file a formal complaint so they might not be so open to questions from the public. So we have a guy who is violating state laws, how do you report this to PT? Oh you can't. I also found a guy pending charges for sexual assault of a client still listed. Real simple to check on. All you have to do is go to the state board and look up people who have lost their license for whatever reason and then search their names on PT. The first one I check was listed. Scary.
     
  11. FTFaculty

    FTFaculty Member

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    You don't play games, b4cz28. Glad to hear you're also tired of the abuse from many pastoral counselors, so we may yet find common ground (other than the most significant thing, that adopted Abrahamic status). The last time I attended the institutional church, it was as an elder working alongside Pastor Ed, who had a side job as a Christian counselor with an office near downtown. The kind of guy who'd drop little nuggets about confidences his clients had shared (and you'd think "Did he really just do THAT?"), kind of guy who would tell you something pretty vulgar about a parishioner behind their back, and if later confronted about it, he'd say "What? I NEVER said that--you're a liar!", kind of guy who loved to gaslight and when cornered for some misdeed, was master of playing one person against another, wiggling out and watching the fun, the kind of guy who's wife was in perpetual grimace mode and seemed to have a destroyed personality. He had no conscience whatsoever--at least none I could detect. But he put on a good show for the crowd and hid behind that thin smile--and heaven help the one who'd seen him behind the stage who ever tried to tell anyone else about how insincere that smile was. And the darned thing was, he was the third such "Christian" counselor who I'd known in the previous decade who was quite possibly a sociopath. So there's my experience with the last "Christian" counselor I'll ever hang with.
     
  12. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Active Member

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    I know the whole "clergy credential" thing usually sparks debate. But I don't see that in this situation. If this guy, or anyone, limited their pastoral counseling to an actual church or religious community I'd take a softer stance.

    This guy isn't walking closely to a somewhat blurry line. He's blatantly breaking the law and practicing medicine without a license. "Faith healers" don't put pictures of themselves wearing scrubs on the internet to peddle practices that mention all sorts of medical treatment but never seem to mention religion. Not to mention, this guys claim of being a pastoral counselor seems like just an excuse to get listed on this website. It's very clear he fancies himself an alternative medicine practitioner primarily.

    Guys like this need to be reported. Has anyone reported him to Psychology Today so they might take down the profile? Things like that lend credibility where absolutely none is due.

    This guy is dangerous for reasons that extend far beyond the mill "doctorate" he undoubtedly displays on his wall.

    As a side note, while I generally oppose licensing naturopaths (as I feel this makes it appear that the profession has any scientific value) this guy is definitely a case for regulating the ND. Granted, his sort would just make up a new degree. But it would, if absolutely nothing else, help put the natural health mills at a greater disadvantage.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 12, 2017
  13. b4cz28

    b4cz28 New Member

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    You'll have to show me the thread where we disagreed on that I don't remember.

    I dislike this Pastoral counseling thing more than you will ever know. You have guys with fake degree's 90% of the time messing with folks heads. Check out these guys American Association of Pastoral Counselors, they are changing how pastoral counselors operate. Many states have licensure that is very deep.

    I too am souring on the whole institutional church thing sadly. I made the mistake of picking up my churches financial sheet the other day......
     
  14. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Active Member

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    It's important to remember that "messing with people's heads" is generally not a regulated activity even in the strictest states. An unlicensed person cannot diagnose or treat mental illness.

    But there is nothing that says you can't sit down and talk about personal problems. Clergy tend to fall into that latter camp. Being sad because your marriage is on the rocks is not the same thing as clinical depression. It's how life coaching falls between licensing guidelines.

    For me, the biggest red flag for "pastoral counselors" is when they operate outside of an actual church. Pastoral counseling is a service provided by clergy of all faiths. You go to your church/synagogue/mosque and sit down and talk things over with your clergy person of choice.

    Where we see these fakes operating is actually operating counseling practices. I was reading one case in Alabama where a husband and wife team rented an office, had a waiting room, had a secretary doing intake and just put out a shingle that said "Pastoral Counseling."

    People are always going to go to their clergy with problems. And that's OK. That activity might accurately be called "pastoral counseling." The problem seems to be that there are a large number of people who are willing to manipulate that term for their own needs.

    Then, of course, there's Colorado where anyone can be a "Registered Psychotherapist."
     
  15. cookderosa

    cookderosa Resident Chef

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    I help people with: pain, scarring, weight loss, injury or surgery recovery, performance increase, energy, and other physical or emotional issues using FSM (Frequency Specific Microcurrent) OR with balancing their thoughts, feelings, and emotions. Among its greatest forte's are the areas of anxiety, depression, addiction, focus, ADD/ADHD, PTSD and other trauma's, OCD, energy, moods, and insomnia. FSM may also optimize performance of all kinds---whether athlete, musician, student, career/corporate, or social/relational---starting with its effects on the Emotions/Energy/Brain/NervousSystem

    issues
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    :bsflag:
     
  16. Stanislav

    Stanislav Active Member

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    What these people are doing is claiming to both provide medical service AND engage in "ministry" of "sacerdotal healing", claiming one or the other as it fits their goals. Alt-med side is, quite clearly, unlicensed practice of medicine.

    "Healing ministry" part is interesting as well. Of course, this predates the generally accepted start date of the Church (at Pentecost): both Jesus and the Apostles did it. We have healer-saints like St. Luke, Sts. Cosmas and Damian and St. Panteleimon as clear examples of what it looks like; there are established healing Church Mysteries (chiefly Holy Unction). Only there are a few problems. First, a priest or another person attempting this can't predict the result, because it is God who heals. Exceptions are holy men with the gift of prophecy, but these are extremely rare, and in most cases you do not really know who they are. Second, and it is very well established: you can't charge people money for healing that comes from God. That's why Cosmas, Damian, and Panteleimon are "Holy Unmercenaries": they didn't charge for healing even when they used their skill as what passed back then for trained physicians. So what "SMOKH" appears to be doing is, first, conferring Holy Orders for a fee (which is a clear case of simony, grave sin and major Canonical crime) and then empower them to "heal" as a career (which would also be simony if it was actually possible. Didn't work well for Simon. Otherwise it is just deception).

    There are cases of clergy working as doctors. One Ukrainian Orthodox priest built a church in Florida using funds gained as a doctor; it's an active parish to this day. More famous example is Prof. Valentin Voyno-Yasenetsky, also known as Archbishop Luke of Simpheropol and Crimea in the Russian Orthodox Church (1877-1961). A unique guy who both won the Stalin Prize in Medicine and is a canonized Saint. But he was a surgeon, not "pastoral counsellor". These guys are trained MDs.
     
  17. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Active Member

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    This will mark the first time where I've seen someone try to shield actual medical practice behind "Pastoral Counseling." Typically I see it with people who are doing something that may or may not get too close to the lines where one should be an MFT.

    But no one is ever going to criticize a priest for counseling a couple who belongs to that church and is experiencing some sort of issue. The danger comes in when the clergy person isn't operating out of a church and, even more curious, when they are offering their services to the general public.

    That last bit is key, I think. If I go to St. Francis Church regularly and form a pastoral relationship with Fr. Doe, then I may go to Fr. Doe for advice or a friendly ear when I have work, marriage or spiritual trouble. No problems.

    But if Mr. Doe rents out an office in a medical complex, outfits it like a medical office and hangs out a shingle offering "pastoral counseling" then I think that's something that shouldn't be allowed. Presently, there are few laws against it as "pastoral counseling" itself isn't regulated.

    As for this guy...

    I'd say that the least dangerous part about him is that he's claiming to be a pastoral counselor. He seems to be providing actual medical services to people and taking their money.

    I think we can sit around and debate the morality and societal impact of a guy whose "pastoral counseling" appears to be limited to appending letters to the end of his name. This isn't one of those "eh, but what's the harm?" situations. This is a guy who could kill someone.
     
  18. Johann

    Johann Active Member

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    Couldn't agree more. Frequently, people of this ilk harbor delusions of false competence; I'm pretty sure many of them don't even realize the harm they are capable of - not that there's any excuse, of course.

    J.
     
  19. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Active Member

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    It is, unfortunately, something I've noticed among a fair number of CAM providers even if they have training from accredited institutions. Chiropractors have paralyzed people and allowed children to needlessly suffer from conditions like asthma that they try, unsuccessfully, to treat with spinal manipulation. (Licensed) Naturopaths have convinced people to forego chemo in favor of vegan diets and Vitamin C injections.

    On the one hand, naturopath licensing would have put this guy out of business or, at a minimum, forced him to pick a different word. On the other hand, there is plenty of quakery that has been endorsed by the state by granting it a license and allowing those people to "treat" conditions with unproven, ineffective and sometimes dangerous treatment modalities.

    So, I guess I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't be legally permitted to "play doctor" as a non-MD/DO even if your school is accredited. We have a word for alternative medicine that works; medicine.
     

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