masters in psychology

Hi Everyone,
I am still attempting to locate a masters in psychology, and have pretty much decided on either: Leceister in the UK, Portsmouth in the UK, Charles Sturt, or Domingez Hills. Here is my problem: cost, and how the program will suit my needs. I want a psychology base, but DH offers a degree in Behavioral Science and CS only offers a masters in Child and Adolescent Behavior. I am looking to work as a school psychologist, or perhaps (if possible) doing private counseling. What is your advise as to the best school cost wise and goal wise? Have you ever heard of grants/loans/scholarships given to adults? Thanks for your help!

 

Living in SC have you considered Liberty University in Virginia.

They offer a 48 credit hour M.A. in Counseling which will meet most states requirements for the Lic. Prof Counselor exam (LPC). It is done via DL (video) with a couple of classes having to be done by short summer courses (1 or two weeks).

In our state to become a school psych requires a doctorate. A school counselor requires the Masters plus a teaching certificate & 3 years teaching experience.

In any case, the M.A. in counseling could allow you to work for the school system or go into private practice as a psychotherapist. You could also take it and enter a Ph.D. program in counseling psychology.
http://www.liberty.edu

The Liberty courses are secular in nature so there is no requirement that you be a conservative Baptist.

North

 

Hi Annie,

It sounds as if you're trying to cover a lot of bases with a single degree. My first recommendation is that spend some time studying up on the different helping professions and the training programs that get you where you want to go. I can't tell you how often I've encountered folk who matriculated into some sort of psychology-related program assuming (incorrectly) that upon completion he or she would be able to obtain employment and function in an applied setting doing counseling or psychotherapy. The most recent example was a woman who was taking a masters in social psychology! Second, lose the idea of offshore programs for the interests you identify. The reason I say this has nothing to do with the quality of the respective university but how easily the program and credential will transfer into licensure/certfication/credentialling in the US. Also, since you're looking into programs that require training in applied skills you need to hook up with a program that can provide and ***certify*** practicum hours. This is CRUCIAL. At the masters's level, unless one is interested in psychological assessment, I encourage people toward the MSW. The MSW enjoys long-standing credibility unlike the LPC which is a relative newcomer and does not have medicare vendorship. If you are interested in psychological assessment I would very strongly encourage you toward the M.Ed. in school psychology. North mentioned that his state requires the Ph.D. in school psychology and I believe this requirement exists in very few states. In fact, the M.Ed. is generally the practitioner's degree. I see where you're located in SC which I don't believe requires the Ph.D. Bear in mind that school psychologists generally spend most of their time testing; few school systems employ school psychologists for counseling and the training is short on counseling in favor of teaching behavior management for consulting with teachers about classroom management and, again, assessment. If your interest in working in the school systems is in doing treatment you might want to look into the school social work specialization. Touch base with the SC department of education to double check on credentialling. Also, I would encourage you to go to the NASP website for additional information on school psychology as a profession and the NASW website for school social work. Many school psychologists tell me that after a while they find giving the same tests over and over becomes tedious. Some enjoy the detective work of psychological assessment. I know I do although I'm not a 'school' psychologist. Your bio locates you Anderson which means you're nearby one of the most prestigious school psychology programs in the country which is the program at UGA in Athens (also offers the MSW). UGA supports a very strong school psych program with some extremely well regarded faculty (eg, Randy Kamphaus, George Hynd). USC in Columbia offers both programs but as I recall you may be a little closer to UGA. If you have any thoughts about going on eventually for a Ph.D. in psychology I'd vote for starting out in school psychology. The base you would develop in assessment would stand you in very good stead for admission into clinical or counseling as well as school psychology programs not to mention the leg up you would have for specializing in neuropsychology.

I hope this gives you some direction. By the way, I've lived in both Athens and Columbia and Athens is a more fun place to be ...

 

Hi Annie:
May I echo what David said. I doubt that you are going to get one degree that will allow you to practice in the private arena and in the school system. The LPC is accepted in Alabama in private practice but it has limited use in the school system. I would suggest that you look at getting a degree in Education Psychology. Capella University has such a degree. If you want to be in private practice I would suggest the Masters in Clinical Psychology or the Masters in Social Work. I have the MA in Counseling Psychology from Liberty and a PhD in Human Services - Professional Counseling from Capella. If I could start over it would be either the Clinical Psych or Social Work. If you want to go into education you will need the educational psych degree to insure acceptance in all states. Good Luck. Howard Rodgers [email protected]

 

Good advice from Howard and David two people with practical experience.

David brings up a good point about testing. If you are interested in that area that is a separate specialization. One of my wife's cousins does diagnostic testing . She got an M.Ed from the local University through night and summer courses. It is a lot fewer credits (in this state) than the M.A. in Counseling. She is now a diagnostician with the school distict and makes very good money.

David is also correct about the difference between the MSW and the LPC. Again, in my state some regulatory agencies see the LPC as equivalent to an MSW with advanced practioner credential. Which is great except for the fact of David's issue of reimbursement. This means that there is a natural bias in favor of MSW's. For instance, after getting my M.A. I attempted to get a position with the Psych Hospital. If I had been an MSW they were intersted but they were not intersted in an M.A. (did not have LPC but they were not sure they hired LPC's). On the other hand if I had wanted to be a Treatment Director at an RTC no probelm from a regulatory point of view but may have been from a reimbursement issue as David points out. Again, if you want private practice, and to be a school counselor, the M.A. may not be a bad way to go. MSW is certainly more flexible but I do not know of any DL programs. I will also add another anecdote. I know an M.A. who has decided to seek a psychology Ph.D. & licensure because she sees the market and opportunities as much better.

Howard, Liberty's program looked quite good and appeared to duplicate the on campus M.A. I completed. How did you find it for rigour?

Good luck as you wade through these issues and find what is right for you.

North

 

Howard, In the service of ensuring Annie gets where she wants to go let me make one clarification. If she wants to become a school psychologist she will need to get her degree in school and not educational psychology. These are different specialty areas within psychology. If I recall correctly, Ed Psych is Division 15 and School Psych is Division 16. Within the typical university governance structure school psychology programs are housed in educational psychology departments. Its an easy oversight to make.

 

North,
The MA in Counseling from Liberty will challenge anyone. It was much more difficult than my MBA from Univ of Ala at Bham. They cut you no slack.....and I had to take the comprehensive two times, and I think I am relatively smart. A word of caution, you can transfer in two courses - I transferred in styx but you will be tested on Liberty's material even on courses you transfer in. The required religion courses are somewhat of a drag - especially since I am Cumberland Presbyterian. Doctrine is required and I had difficulty giving them the right answer. Howard Rodgers

 

There are several other factors to consider prior to making any decisions as to which degree to pursue. The personality typology, professional goals, values, interests and intellectual capability of individuals who seek counseling, social work or Clinical Psychology as professions may not be as similar as one may imagine, and therefore this must be factored in to the decision making process.

For example individuals who seek Social Work are usually more oriented toward providing psychotherapy and to function as advocates for their clients whereby Clinical Psychologists,at the doctoral level (I am not saying that Psychologists do not advocate for their clients but that is not their primary function), are geared towards the practitioner/scientist model which requires a higher degree of research, testing, statistical comprehension and other cognityively based skills which are dissimilar to the focus of social work. The very nature of the counseling profession, in its diverse forms, combines counseling and testing, and individuals attracted to these fields are generally different in their personal characterisitcs and needs than those in Psychology and social work.

Therefore, a careful exploration of these factors would be helpful prior to leaping from one field to the other or making a definitive decision.

 

Come, come, now Simeon: you put a clinical psych, a counselor, a social worker, and a school psychologist in a sack, shake them and toss them out and they will pretty much hit the ground at the same time. The course work is also very similar - they name it different to prevent cross over. I think it is all a conspiracy of the system. I would challenge anyone to take my transcript and that of a ph.d. clinical psych major and find an appreciable difference. Also, there is a clinical psych at my hospital in the pain center who can bill insurance companies because he is a clinical psych - but he doesn't see patients without insurance - I do - on a sliding scale. I administer the same tests he does and from what the anethesologist (sic - gas passers) tell me my work ups are just as good as his, and in some cases better. So, why the distinction, territory, my good man, territory.

------------------
Howard Rodgers

 

Howard, I'm sorry that you're personalizing what I stated but there are distinctions between these professions in terms of their emphasis, depth and breadth of training, professional expectations and level of responsibilities, etc. Also to equate an internship in counseling or social work with one from an APA approved Clinical Psychology program is a major leap. In addition, not every individual who is intereseted in clinical psycholgy has the capacity to obtain a doctorate in this field and likewise, there are those persons who are attracted to counseling or social work due to these fields being congruent with their personal needs, interests and value systems.

 

There are some distinctions, but not significant. A challenge - look at the coursework from Capella for the PhD in Clinical Psych and the Human Services PhD with a Professional Counseling major. Look at the face sheet for each of the degrees. Nothing personal taken, Simon. I have worked in mental health with Clincal Psychs and Social Workers and we have used pins on each other at times, but at other times the swords came out - bottom line, we could find little difference in the academic preparation and the practice. But I always enjoy a challenge to postings - without disagreement we would never hone our skills or improve our knowledge base. Thanks.

------------------
Howard Rodgers

 

There is, without a doubt, overlap between these professions but also distinct differences in emphasis.

However, returning to the original issue, the point I was attempting to make is that prior to any individual making a decision as to which of these fields to study it is very important that they consider the issues I raised in my initial posting. Making a major decision regarding an educational program should entail careful planning to enhance success in the selected coursse of study as well as in future job satisfaction and adjustment.

 

As a Clinical Social Worker with 12 years of experience, I'd like to comment on this issue. There can be little argument that the training of Social Workers and Clinical Psychologists is different, if for no other reason than the psychology degree takes twice as long to get through. Internships, however, as remarkably similar. During my internships many of my fellow interns were from various schools of psychology and we all had exactly the same duties. Following grad school it was more complicated. MSWs and PhDs can be hired into very different types of jobs but in regards to performing outpatient therapy (I use this example as it is perhaps the best known job that each performs) there was exactly ZERO difference.
We all knew if someone was an MSW or a PhD but it made no difference in regards to case assignment or the skill of the clinician. The one difference that became apparent as managed care companies tightened their screws was that social workers were preferred as they were paid less. Sad to say it, this has led to a decrease in the number of psychologists in many workplaces. If I were going to give advice to someone contemplating grad school in this area I would unhesitatingly recommend an MSW program over a PhD program as 1) they are cheaper (due to the shorter duration) 2) they are actually more marketable. While I am opinionated on this subject, I believe that my opinions are based more on my experience in the field than on the fact that I'm an MSW. 20 years ago the things I've said here would not be true. In todays job market I believe the MSW to be the superior degree.
Jack

 

Many Psychologists perform comprehensive psychological and neuro-psychological testing in addition to conducting individual and group therapy. Social worlers do not engage in any testing. In relationship to internships, the general expectations for doctoral level clinical psychologists is significantly higher than for internships for social work or counselors. APA internships are very exacting in the level of demand on psycholgists. They are expected to take on the more difficult and recalcitrant cases due to theit higher degree of training than social workers and counselors. Within the context of psychiatric treatment teams, they are usually second in line to Psychiatrists, and in that repect are generally accorded more credence in regard to patient treatment.

I am not saying that clinical outcomes from therapy differ amongst these three professions, because studies demonstrate that counselors, social workers and psychologists have similar therapeutic outcomes.

Although it is true that social workers and counselors are more cost effective in a managed care environment, the low pay levels, low status, difficult patient caseloads, high competitveness for the better jobs coupled with high rates of burnout do not make these fields viable choices in our current job market. It is also important to keep in mind the power and therapeutic effect on patients and treatment team members when the therapist introduces himself as a doctor of clinical psychology versus a Ms. or Mr. Social Worker or Counselor.

 

Jack Tracey

The fact is, as you yourself stated above, people are finally waking up to the fact that Clinical Social Workers can do just as good a job as a Psychologist in virtually any Clinical work environment. The idea that Psychologists represent some clinical elite is rapidly being recognized as a myth. The only thing they've got is the psych. testing niche and as far as I'm concerned, they can keep it. BTW Simon, care to say something about your own qualifications?
Jack

 

This has become an interesting thread. I think Simon presents a well-formulated position and I continue to suspect he is more than a layperson when it comes to the mental health field. I also agree with Jack that the market is better for social workers than psychologists when it comes to being hired as a therapist. My heart goes out to Howard and I hope he can come to terms with the limitations imposed by his degree.

Here’s my contribution: everybody does counseling. Everybody! Psychiatrists, social workers, psychiatric nurses, counselors, clergymen and, yes, even psychologists are all trained in and, if they wish to do so, able to practice the craft. Many grandmothers, some bartenders, and a few sergeants I’ve come across are not too shabby either

There is one area of practice that differentiates me the (small c) clinical psychologist from me the counselor from me the social worker. This is psychological assessment and neither my degree in counseling nor my MSW equipped me to practice this skill. Not even remotely. Were I to retire tomorrow (OK, 178 days from now) and I elected to maintain a private practice I would eschew therapy in favor of assessment. Why? Simple, I don’t wish to haggle with the HMOs. Assessment pays, it pays well, and it pays quickly.

Were I to start over again, short of going to med school the only allied health profession I’d seriously entertain is the PA-C. Good salary and lots of horsepower w/o ever setting foot inside of a graduate school. Good luck on getting in though, it can be more difficult to win admission to PA than med school.

 

Go Jack, go. I might add that during the time I was director of a mental health center I had social workers who did assessments and used the MMPI, MPQ, PAI, WISC-III, etc. I also had PhD Clinical Psych's working for me as well. Jack, you are correct, MSW are now more marketable, basically because Medicare will pay them. At one time the MSW was a service linkage degree - but it has moved passed that.

David, thanks for you kind words. But I am more frustrated than anything - mostly at the elitist PhD Clinical Psych's who think they are more than they are. BTW, I am retired from one career - my MBA served me well until I suffered burn out and went into counseling.

Also, I agree the PA-C would be a good route to go --- Bethel College, McKenzie, TN was approved last year for the PA-C program and getting in now is relatively simple. Have a neighbor who is going. She had tried for 3 years to get into UAB but could break the age barrier - she was 38. So, look at Bethel if you know someone who is interested.

Hey, guys, we are more alike than we are different. Don't ya think?

------------------
Howard Rodgers

 

S- I am not advocating for one profession over the other. However,as a matter of fact, a doctorate in Clinical Psychology is still held with higher professional status than either social work and counseling (even at the doctoral level), its curriculum is significantly more difficult and the APA internships are extremely competitive and generally more demanding than the internships of the other two fields, in spite of any anecdotal examples that have been presented to prove otherwise...snipped...

J- You state that this is "a matter of fact" yet you present no evidence to support your claim. Until you do so I will have to consider it to be mere opinion and thusly no more valid than any other opinion, including my own.

S- As far as patients and the general public is concerned, professionals with doctorates are generally PERCEIVED to have more knowledge and expertise which in itself may have a placebo effect in working with clients.

J- Or, it may not.

S- Can I present studies to support this statement? There are a number of studies relating to this subject which can readily be found through a search of the literature.

J- Sorry, I'm not going to do your homework for you. If you want me to think that this is more than opinion then you should do the lit. review.

S- BTW, I am not a Psychologist.
J- So you can't even speak from personal experience.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Don't get me wrong. I have all the respect in the world for Clinical Psycologists. Many of the best therapists I've known are Psychologists and I may have been one myself if I could have afforded the five years of grad school. They have some training and skills that Social Workers generally don't have but training in advanced statistics and research methodology doesn't count for much when you're sitting with a patient in a therapy session. This thread has moved way off topic and so I suggest that any further comments be moved to the "Off Topic" section.
However, if you're simply going to restate your opinions without supporting evidence then please don't bother. I understand your position and we may simply have to agree to disagree.
Jack