Martial Arts Disscussion

For about 12 years now I have been learning Wing Chun and Muay Thai. I think the skills that these two forms bring are very hard to replace with others. I know BJJ is really common in MMA but I have tried BJJ about 6 years ago and it doesn't seem like something I would want to do. Alot of BJJ is based on ground fighting and I do respect everyone that is dedicated to this form but for myself I love Wing Chun and Muay Thai. If you want Cardio then Muay Thai is for you. If you want any input give Muay Thai one chance. Go to a TRUE Muay Thai training center and you will not be disappointed.

 

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English Martial Arts « The Science of Defence

Ancient English Martial Arts have always interested me. Also, as a small boy, there was a neighboring family that included a father who was a boxer. He started teaching me western boxing along with his boys. A good boxer is a VERY dangerous opponenet. Footwork, stances, balance and speed are all meant for fighting applications.

I still integrate the western boxing I studied as a boy in the various arts I have studied.

Gotta get ready for tomorrow. Good night everyone!

Respecfully,

Abner

**Respect**
**Reverence**
**Humility**

 

I completely agree 100%

BJJ is inherently a "cocky" martial art, considering they made their name by soliciting fights of rival black belts of various disciplines to get their name out there. With that being said, I like the respect and discipline that comes from a dojo rather than rolling around with a bunch of thugs in a no gi MMA environment.

Most BJJ instructors are still willing to fight another discipline provided they sign a person liability waiver against injury in the event the non-Bjj fighter gets hurt in the exchange. I've seen Karate instructors ask to do an expedition with a BJJ black belt in a in order to have a penor measuring contest, but shy away when asked to sign the waiver, lol.

I am in the process of forming a grappling group at work so I can expose myself to other martial arts. So far we have BJJ and wrestling people, but I'm not against striking arts, but going to the ground is where I feel the most comfortable.

 

My friend GM Eric Lee(MA and movie actor/choreographer) was on a movie set several years ago. Steven Seagal started mouthing off to Judo Gene LeBell. Judo Gene locked Seagal up like a pretzel.


Abner

 

Thanks Abner. Helpful as usual.

 

I have always been fascinated with martial arts but I’ve always been more fascinated by people who try to use martial arts in actual street fights. It’s always entertaining to watch, regardless of how the fight turns out. I started in Muy Thai after looking into Kung Fu, Kempo and even BJJ. What sold me on it was at the time I worked in a bar in Cowtown as a floor walker (politically correct way of saying bouncer) and I was way undersized for the job in my opinion. I worked 3 to 4 nights a week and probably witnessed about 10 to 15 fights per week. I was assaulted directly usually once to twice per weekend (where I did not strike first or otherwise grab the person) and was otherwise involved in multiple minor altercations any given weekend. I won’t lie, it was a 21 year old, Alpha male’s dream job, but it was also a series of hard lessons resulting from lots of kicked shins, one busted head, one black eye and even a little pepper spray for good measure. The biggest lessons I learned was that in a real fight, there is no “style” and Muy Thai allowed me to stay on my feet, fight more than one person at a time if need be and allowed me to use gross muscle movements and a flinch reaction to my benefit.

First things I learned were fine muscle movements are out in a fight unless you train constantly, like those nifty little Kung Fu hands of fury strikes with pressure points and all that…yep…right out the window. Anything involving kicks above the waistline were too slow and easy to defeat to be of any use and kicks in general (with the exception of a knee) require a lot of room and a compromise in balance. The good old fashioned American boxing style guarded jab was the king of the strikes followed closely by a mean, old school head butt. Knees work particularly well if locking up with someone and elbows are friggin’ deadly close up (like when wedged between two pool tables) but almost useless unless you have a hold on someone when you throw it.

Logically the absolute best thing in a 1 on 1 fight is taking the fight to the ground where you can slow the pace down, gather your wits and get over the initial panic reaction and start to think about what you need to do cognitively. The problem is once you go to the ground you are very vulnerable to additional attackers, such as the stray cowboy boot to the head while you hold some cowboy’s bestest buddy in the world on the ground waiting for the cops. Other ways of slowing down a fight are like what Kizmet suggest, running or evading. Backing up and creating space.

Kizmet has also the right idea in keeping a punch and run mentality. In a real fight things move so quickly, come so unexpectedly and you get such a huge adrenaline rush that all the cognitive thinking and fine muscle movements in the world fly out the window unless you have been preconditioned to your physiological reaction (I recommend the book Real Fighting for more info). Police academy somewhat teaches this (very, very briefly using such things as a Redman suit) but I can honestly say that when wearing a uniform I never had someone “square up” to me to kick my butt as much as they were just trying to get away. Bouncers however have to “win” because the whole point is that the opposing party doesn’t want to go anywhere. That’s my experience; your mileage may vary for what it’s worth.

Back on topic…

Muy Thai that is kick boxing has very limited utility in a real fight outside of the boxing aspect of it. But Muy Thai lends itself to large muscle movements depending upon the teacher/instructor and their purpose for teaching the art. Large muscle movements are also part of boxing (like their blocks) which are part of a natural flinch reaction (this is good) and does not necessarily count on any evasive action other than the slow circle dance. Though American boxing has plenty of the bob and weave, the step back, side step, or high blocks are all natural reactions to someone swinging something at your head (at least for me). The bad thing with Muy Thai is that size matters to a degree (just like in American boxing) but speed can overcome size if followed up with a barrage of strikes and using large, hard body mass to attack soft, fragile body mass. Examples, head butt (large hard object) to the face (fragile bones, etc.), Thai kick using a shin (hard object) to kick the thigh (soft object) or knee (hard object) to the groin or lower abdomen (soft objects unless you’re a NY Congressman).

American style boxing is a martial art and in my less than humble opinion, has far more utility in a real fight than just about anything out there, I think Muy Thai has the capacity to expand upon it depending upon how it is taught. Hands are faster than feet, strikers can fight multiple opponents, strikers who can block and absorb are more effective than trying to evade opponents in an enclosed area. Grapplers win in one on one, but if there’s more than one attacker or a knife comes out (or something similar) grapplers are at a disadvantage.

Note: I'm not saying one art is better than another, only that I don't have the time or patience to train enough to make practical use of any of them. All of them are better than nothing if for no other reason than getting your mind right...which is after all, the single most important thing someone can do.

 

Ah, well said and quite true! I worked as a bouncer for a little punk rock club while working my way through college. Ending fights fast and quick are essential. Posing in a beautiful Crane stance like in Karate Kid will swiftly get your ass kicked.

Also, let me just clarify. For street fight, we emphasize quick strikes like:

**Palm strike under the chin**
**Punch to the trachea**
**Palm striking to the subjects head while at the same time applying a whipping strike to the lower back of the head neck area**
**Shins***
**Biting, grabbing hair, gouging, muscle tearing, etc.

We train in Black GI's and black sneakers. We use boxing stances, and train within centimeters of each other. We only practice low kicks (from the floor) targeting the lower leg area. We practice kicking while striking. A quick kick from the floor while striking the lower leg/knee is nearly undetectable. THE KEY IS NOT TO TELEGRAPH THE KICK. We kick with the bottom or foot (similar to stomp). He reject the use of the traditional Karate/Kung Fu kick whichs teaches to kick the the ball of your foot.

I also agree with you on the advice you gave Kismet. Quick movements like a palm strikes (a small fist can easily be broken on the VERY hard surface of subjects head - Ex. Mike Tyson in the street fight - He broke his hand due to no padding) under the chin, punch to the trachea. If you’re grabbed suddenly and cannot get out of the lock, stomp the toes, crap the shins with the back of your shoes, etc. I once saw a small-framed barrio girl take down a big longhaired guy. She grabbed a fist of hair, the screamed in pain and agony, and she proceeded to bang his head into the wall. She beat the hell out of him.

So yes, western boxing is a martial art. All the arts are good to know and respect. A martial artist needs to realize the era of fight in horse stance, cat stances, forward stance, back stances, cat stance, horse stances are not applicable to modern day fighting.

Oh, my lunch is almost over, bye!!!!!!! Sorry for any grammos or typos.

Abner

 

I utilized alot of joint locks and I always look to break something the first chance I get. In a standing battle I was taught that 13 pounds of pressure will break a collar bone if delivered the right way. My second choice is to break a finger, any finger will do usually. Essentially, I want to end the fight quickly and with the least amount of time and effort possible. Also being an LEO I cannot be seen trading fisticuffs with a suspect, but I can swarm them, take them to the ground, utilize joint and pressure point manipulation, and in a all out brawl I will always look to break something in order to stop the fight. Of course I have other toys at my disposable, but they are always a last resort and I ALMOST never use them because I am very confident going hands on. (I did use my tazer last year on a 380lbs meth dealer who was on PCP and fighting 3 other LEO's) There are some times when going hands on is inappropriate, like when you know your going to lose, lol.)

Wrestling and BJJ is what I know, but I'm always looking for something useful that I can utilize in the real world.

 

What I like about finger breaks is they are quick and effective.

Abner

 

Bad thing about finger breaks is that they do not always work on drunk suspects. Ask me how I know

As for dirty tricks, my favorite is a funny looking but painful poke in the eye (careful though you might bust it) and I absolutely adore a well executed instep stomp. Nothing rolls a big guy like stomping the inside of his ankle. Kizmet, you can bring a big dude down if you do this right, especially if he isn't wearing boots that cover the ankle.

I like palm heal strikes a lot, they even work if you hit the crown of the head. The only down side is that it's very difficult to land along the jaw line in a straight line so there's a tradeoff.

I also can't believe I forgot the number 1, all time knock out king fight stopper for women, the brachial stun. If you get a first hit always try for the brachial, it drops the toughest guys like a sack of crap.

I try not to hit people straight on in the neck, we had a fatality fight where a guy did that and got 40 years in prison. Yes bouncers can go to prison for doing their job if a court feels the force was excessive. After that I don't go for frontal neck areas or chokeholds unless I think I might get killed in the fight. Chokeholds work great but also cause severe spinal injury and more than one neck has been broken because of a misapplied chokehold at a funky angle.

 

Sounds good. The only time I"ve ever been in that sort of a situation I went with a hard knee right up the middle. It worked well enough that I could leisurely walk to my car and drive away without further bother. That's really all I want, although while I was walking away I did have a small wish for a taser.:firedevil:

 

That's funny, though I didn't think Seagal was the mouthing-off kind of guy. He always acts so Mr. Zen like on his TV show.

 

:blackeye: Maybe it is time for a DegreeInfo cage match?? :blackeye:

 

Good job. Careful with the ol' knee to the groin trick, most guys assaulting women generally expect this will be the first move but when it does work it's a beaut. Also I'm not sure where you live and what the laws are but as someone who has been pepper sprayed in a fight (job related) I can tell you that a little bit of pepper spray really makes for a rotten afternoon. It's like a little slice of legalized hell in your hand for anyone sad enough to need it. The foam doesn't work as fast but it sure does spread around more so it's a toss up. A shot of peppers and a kick to the groin...now that's punishment.

 

Amen to that, everytime I have been sprayed, which has been 4 times now, the effects get worse and worse. Although the gas chamber in Basic Training also sucked just as bad if not worse. I'll take the gas chamber minus the snot rockets please, lol.

On a separate note, my grappling club just got a Sambo guy (yeah buddy!!) and possibly a Kav Maga guy. Two of the martial arts I've been dying to try out, very exciting . . .

 

Tear gas at least wears off quickly...with me I feel the intense effects of OC for around 20 minutes or so and can tell I've been sprayed due to mild burning for hours. And of course when you take a hot shower that night the effects (though mild) will still remind me that I took a blast of it. The worst time was when I was yelling when I got a mouthful of foam. Don't ask me how that happened but it did, burning, puking, more burning...yeah that was fun.

 

Once upon a time I also carried a telescoping baton on the belt of my messenger bag. I never had to hit anyone with it but I showed it to someone once and made a suggestion about where I might put it. It was fun to see the expression on his face when I pushed the release and the baton expanded out to 20". I don't carry it much anymore, sometimes if I'm traveling to a place I've never been.

 

Those things are a felony in Texas, which is weird because we can carry guns.

 

I agree, we males have been conditioned to be VERY careful/protective of our huevos (family jewels or is it crown jewels?). A good stomp to the toes, shoe scrap to the knee shin area, or double palm strike to the ear drums while give you plenty of time to get out of there. If you happen to slip or fall onto your back, start bicycle kicking very rapidly to keep the guy from getting on top of you.

Hasta!!!!

Abner

 

Thanks guys, I don't find myself in those situations anymore. I think it was the college party atmosphere that created those situations for me. Right now the scariest situations I find myself in are big parking garages. Four or six levels of emptiness and some guy lurking in the shadows, just waiting for a victim to rob. Maybe I should get one of those canes with the sword inside. I don't think I'd qualify for a carry permit. :dunno: