Major Breakthrough for DL Law Schools

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Bruce, Nov 21, 2008.

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  1. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    Excellent point, and certainly worth watching.

    I know I'll be among the first to check if Ross Mitchell indeed passed the MA bar exam.

    You think there's a bit of pressure on him? :D
     
  2. workingmom

    workingmom New Member

    Thanks for sharing this article I'm passing it on to some paralegal groups. I know many paralegals who wonder if a Kaplan degree will help them, as some employers are seeking only paralegals from ABA accredited schools. If the ABA is reconsidering it's stance on online law schools, surely it will do the same for paralegals.

    I also hope that people who read it realize that intelligent and hardworking people do pursue degrees online, and online degrees are not some "easy way out."
     
  3. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    He already has experience studying for -- and passing -- the California Bar exam. That has to be a bit of a confidence booster, since the California Bar exam has a much lower pass rate (averaging about 63% in recent years) than the Massachusetts Bar exam (averaging about 82%).
     
  4. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    While the finding is obviously good news for DL law grads, it is not necessarily a "major breakthrough". Since the decision was explicitly case-specific, it directly applies to exactly one person -- not to DL law graduates in general.
    It sounds like a lot depends on the ABA. If the ABA adopts new standards that are more DL-friendly, then it is more likely that Massachusetts will make significant changes in the future. On the other hand, if the ABA determines that DL law schools are still unacceptable, then Massachusetts may be unlikely to repeat this decision in the future.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 25, 2008
  5. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    Oh, I think he'll pass; I'm just saying there has to be a lot of pressure on him, being the first one in state history. I also wonder if the fact CA allows unaccredited & other non-ABA schools to take the bar exam is a reason why their pass rate is so low.

    I have to disagree; I think the mere fact that a DL law school grad has broken through the decades-old standards of ABA and MA-approved only is huge.


    Of course, there's something to be said for precedent. If Mr. Mitchell passes the exam, then the ABA refuses to reconsider their original position on DL schools, I can't see his law license being revoked. And, if they let Mitchell take the exam because of a superior academic record, I think they'd have to extend that standard to anyone else.
     
  6. BlueMason

    BlueMason Audaces fortuna juvat

    Indeed - what's good for the goose, is good for the gander! Thankfully it appears to be a credible individual who has proven his record by his outstanding academic record throughout Law School. He is breaking new ground and setting the future for many DL law students - the stakes are incredibly high. Again, given his academic track record and the fact that he passed Cali bar certainly puts him in a very favorable position to pass the MA bar exam.

    Should he not be successful, it will cast a shadow on DL law schools, given his excellent academic record and I dare say will be a setback.

    Here's crossing fingers and toes to his success! Perhaps sentinel can challenge the CBA after he's completed his degree from London!!!! :D
     
  7. BlueMason

    BlueMason Audaces fortuna juvat

    If you're interested in the ruling..

    http://www.sociallaw.com/slip.htm?cid=18620&sid=120

    some excerpts:

    Here is the overall good news:
    After reading this, there is no doubt whatsoever that Mr. Mitchell will be successful at the MA bar - obviously he has a keen intellect and an ability that is serving him well in his endeavor to progress distance law school!! GO MITCHELL!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 26, 2008
  8. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

  9. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    ABA response to article:

    For comparison, a typical JD curriculum is usually around 90 credit (semester) hours.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 6, 2008
  10. recruiting

    recruiting Member

    That response does not sound too promising...
     
  11. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    Well, it is inevitable that some day the old geezers in control of ABA accreditations will have one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel. The only questions are: (1) How long till that happens? and (2) Will someone younger and better than them come along and give them a good swift kick in the behind? Then and only then will we begin to see the ABA accrediting DL law schools.
     
  12. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.......
     
  13. recruiting

    recruiting Member

    You are correct!

    "Well, it is inevitable that some day the old geezers in control of ABA accreditations will have one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel.


    ROFL!

    The bottom line is let the potential BAR takers go to online Law Schools if they wish, LET them take the BAR exam, and if they pass THEY PASS!! Passing would mean they have acquired the knowledge needed to pass the BAR and be a lawyer. After all that is the requirement to be a lawyer, no?

    I don't see what the big issue the ABA has with it besides them wanting to keep it in the ABA only family?

    However, becoming an M.D. in this fashion I take issue with, but lawyering, no.

    Just my opinion...;)
     
  14. Vincey37

    Vincey37 New Member

    The bar does not, and can not, test oral advocacy.

    Neither can DL teach the above with current technology. DL, while adequate for imparting known facts on students, is also poorly suited for having in depth discussions about complex issues.

    I do not agree with the decision of the ABA in having a blanket refusal to accredit DL law schools. However, I strongly disagree that their position does not have some merit.
     
  15. sentinel

    sentinel New Member

    You are aware that the majority of lawyers/attorneys never see the inside of a courtroom, right? While I agree oral communication skills are essential to communicate with clients I do not think every lawyer need be a great orator. They should focus on writing clear, concise, and readable legal documents.

    Even on-campus law schools primarily impart known facts on students and the students are expected to write examinations based on the lectures and readings completed during the semester or year, depending on the course and school.

    If a law school graduate can pass the bar examination, the graduate should be eligible to practice law. Nobody quibbles when a medical school graduate finished in the bottom 10% of their class but passes whatever state medical licensing requirement there might be for a particular state. An incompetent lawyer is far less dangerous than an incompetent doctor; at least you can live to file an appeal in the former situation.
     
  16. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    I've seen several graduates of ABA schools who were complete train wrecks when it came to oral argument. I was on the jury of a civil trial a few years ago, and the plaintiff's lawyer was nearly as bad as the public defender in My Cousin Vinny. It was painful to even be in the same room.
     
  17. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    I think that I agree with Vincey. I've always been a little skeptical of DL, not only for teaching law, but for teaching most hands-on paractice-oriented subjects.

    My layman's impression is that conventional ABA law schools receive criticism within the legal profession for (so the criticism goes) not producing graduates who are fully competent to practice law upon graduation. New graduates have to pick up a lot of practical stuff on their first jobs, learning how things happen out in the legal world.

    So I expect that the ABA's resistance to fully DL law schools probably needs to be understood in that context. If there are concerns about conventional B&M legal education teaching practical lawyering skills, then there's probably going to be some reluctance to move in a direction that might make those kind of problems even worse.

    It seems to me that DL legal instruction could perhaps be combined with a supervised remote legal apprenticeship program, where DL law students also serve in some kind of law-clerk/paralegal capacity in a working legal environment.
     
  18. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    And why couldn't one use teleconferencing technologies to set up mock trials at DL law schools?
     
  19. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    This could be a real limitation for distance learning law schools. People have made some "technology" oriented suggestions but I think what Vincey is saying is that the face-to-face component is necessary, at least to some degree. I think that on the other side of the coin we have the idea that "oral advocacy" is something that can be taught over the course of a semester.

    My opinion is that trial lawyers are born, not made. Some people are performers and some are not. Some people, by virtue of their personalities, can stand up in front of a group of others, even critical others, and deliver a speech with perfection. Some people will never be able to deliver that speech convincingly, regardless of whether they took a specific face-to-face course in law school.

    As Bruce said ealier, just because someone takes that course in B&M law school doesn't mean they will perform well, or even adequately. At the same time, I agree with Bill that some things just don't lend themselves to distance learning. I'm not convinced that the law can't be learned well through distance learning.
     
  20. sentinel

    sentinel New Member

    "You're honor the yuts were just having yutful fun."
     

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