Louisiana Baptist University

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Way, Dec 27, 2003.

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  1. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member


    ===


    :D Ok, I know I get grumpy.

    I have not in this thread in more than one post shown the disposition of the One who said to turn the other cheek when struck. So, I'm sorry.

    It is no excuse, I know. But I promise that there is no more important thing to me than to understand as well as I can what IMO is the revealed Word of God in the Scriptures and by that understanding know Jesus Christ better. I promise I would lose possessions and precious time , limbs and health, to stay right where I am in my studies and do just what I do in my dissertation to uphold The Son's true deity , and use just what I use in my exegetics to accomplish that.

    So, when someone despises my manner of doing these things by denigrating both my writing topic , my effort, and my strategies it is perceived by me as trying to take away the most treasured thing in my life.

    But, that is no excuse. So I apologize to Jason, to Way, and to any concerned moderator (none has contacted me), and to any reader who was offended by my ire in this thread.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 1, 2004
  2. Way

    Way New Member

    LBU

    Hi BIll,

    I am sorry that I offended you. It certainly was not my intention to do so. I was not trying to point a finger at anyone in particular. I was trying to suggest that, what had started out as a positive discourse, had turned into name calling and ridicule by many people. Looking back at the posts, I can see why you thought that I was silent about Jason's posts and then pounced upon you. I apologize....I was not trying to do that. I also apologize for not acknowledging your statement about "Some go to unaccredited schools because they cannot get into accredited ones". It was my error. I enjoy the benefits of your knowledge and hope that this thread may continue in the vein that it is intended.

    Way
     
  3. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Y'see, Way, ole Jason essentially hijacked this thread, turning it from a discussion about LBU into an attempt to ridicule the study of Greek--Bill's reigning passion and FWIW my former teaching area (including NT Greek) and an area in which Ed, as an academically responsible and proficient evangelical, places great value and demonstrable expertise.

    After careful statements by Bill and Ed that nobody was prescribing for the "average" pastor or layperson, and my expressed incredulity that anybody espousing inerrancy (but maybe Jason doesn't?) would deride the serious study of Scripture, Jason then dragged out the pope thang and flung it at Bill and Ed. Charles, an astute fellow and an exemplar of what is really sharp in distance learning, then linked to the horrific shit on Jason's website.

    Despite my horror at Dr Gastrich's bigotry and promotion of ignorance, with valuable help from our bishop-in-residence Russell, I have been trying to keep the discussion of LBU's stance and policies separate from Dr Gastrich's rants and raves.

    Meanwhile, with unexampled hypocrisy Jason tries to paint an attack on his offensiveness as an attack on LBU and to hide behind the skirts of an institution he admitted to caring nothing about. If I didn't know better, I'd think that somebody who really hated LBU came up with him to make LBU look bad in the eyes of those who fail to make the distinction he himself tries to obliterate.

    Peace + be with you.
     
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Thank you for your comments brother Janko. I agree regarding the links to the comments on the Catholic chruch. These were not impressive and only likely to make a positive impression on the same crowd that enjoys Chick publications and believes they are scholarly journals (I have encountered some of those folks on another forum). I almost began laughing at the distortion in Jason's article.

    I have not followed this entire thread the original languages are very imprortant for some with a PhD or ThD in Biblical studies. Most of us can certainly get by with our English translations, commentaries, and a Strong's. Many pastors certainly can also do this. Scholars are another matter. I was amazed in reading a doctoral dissertation on the issue of divorce and remarriage how important these languages are. There are folks arguing that a Pastor can only be married once and divorce is not permitted (under any circumstances). Someone else can take the Greek words and demonstrate based on linguistics that this is NOT the case. Same thing where English bibles translate a word as 'homosexual' in Romans when it actually means something a little different. This then becomes the basis for arguing against a biblical prohibition on homsexuality for persons with a natural inclination. PhD's & ThD's really ought to know this stuff and be able to argue the issues.

    North
     
  5. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Are you suggesting, North, that those little Chick comics aren't scholarly journals? :confused:
     
  6. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

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    Way

    Thanks for accepting my apology and for your kind reply.



    Unk

    You'll recall that before Jason made the statement that people without Greek grasp Scripture as well as those with Greek, I had once or twice insisted that were the LBU doc not to include exegesis in the Biblical languages then the program is substandard. Perhaps it was my fault that the thread got hijacked.


    Russell

    Thanks for pointing out that the LBU ThD requires six units each of Heb/Grk. It is good that they have that requisite. IMO, this is insufficient unless the grammar is regulary used in the program.

    Six units of a language , I assume, would only cover beginning grammar. The question then becomes whether or not the student is taught exegesis and required to use those tools.

    If the Hebrew and Greek grammar are not regularly exegetically employed the study of Biblical books such as 1 Thessalonians or in the evaluation of theologoumenons as views on tribulationalism in the LBU ,coursework then what is the real need for those grammatical introductions to the Biblical languages? It would become mere window dressing and not indicative of linguistic rigor.

    Also, if an LBU ThD were done in Dispensationalism, a popular doctorinal area there, then it would seem best that any Biblical texts used to support premises made in the ThD dissertation should be solidly based on exegeis of those texts in the originals.

    Consider the pre tribulational rapture which EDT says was initiated by Darby's system. This is a central tenet in dispensationalism.

    The Pre trib position is popularized in the La Haye "Left Behind" novels. But while no one would say La Haye's novel should have exegesis, a ThD dissertation referencing the rapture it would seem should.

    One verse somewhat pivotal in the rapture discussion is 1 Thess 4:13-18. But I think it a fair expectation that a ThD dissertation which employs that text in the discussion only makes affirmations about it which are based on the exegesis of it. Such exegesis might include:

    Textually, is koimomenon (13, coming) the correct reading? Syntactically, what does touto (15,this) refer to? Grammatically, what does the changes of tenses in v13 indicate? Lexically, what is the meaning of parousia (15) and why is anesta(14, rose) used instead of egerthe. Other questions too should be asked and answered before one uses the text with authority. Otherwise, one is interpreting the Scripture by a creed rather than seeking to discern authorial intent.

    These sorts of tasks should be practiced in the coursework making the dissertation more scholarly and reliable if its thesis is predicated on the meaning of the Scriptures.


    Well, back to the UZ dissertation, where I presently practice what I preach ,and to the issue of this chapter as to whether the Logos-Sarx or the Logos Anthropos view on the Incarnation of Christ is correct and why.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 1, 2004
  7. telefax

    telefax Member

    We have some posters who have taken the time to learn the languages of their primary sources, who insist that this knowledge is a valuable aid to understanding the Scriptures.

    My original language skills are still limited, yet I see a real need for them. God's revelation to man demands our closest attention, yet no English translation is perfect. Many theological differences come down to nuances of Koine Greek.

    We have other posters who don't know Greek and Hebrew saying that learning them is unnecessary and poor stewardship of one's time. "I don't know it, but I know I don't need to know it."

    Any takers for the remaining position? Anyone here who has learned the original languages and thinks it was a waste of time? I would still disagree, but at least theirs would be an informed opinion.
     
  8. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    ===


    Hi Dave.

    As you know many schools in the pastoral MDiv program require both Heb/Grk grammar and exegesis . It probably is very true that often church pastors soon by disuse forget the skills and assume that little need for the use of those studies in their pastorates exists. The question then is, are those tools something which should be required at all in the MDiv program?

    Without denying that some MDivs never took the languages and while conceding that many who did seldom use the languages, I will risk saying that both conditions are IMO regrettable. I don't think pastoral duties should have as their criterion just what some successful pastors do. I think rather pastoral duty should be measured by a careful inspection of the NT requisites.

    While many preachers do not allude at all to insights from the originals, many successfully do and with good effect. There is a little UA seminary near me whose pres has an accredited ThD in NT. The profs there require pastoral students to learn how to in their sermonizing exposit the Scriptures by the originals verse by verse by verse for their auditors edification.

    I maintain that the pastoral teaching represented in the Pastoral Epistles by the terms there employed requires considerable depth and rigor. I believe with Ed that the level of pastoral teaching must rise to the present occasion where on every hand a pastor's congreants are endangered by heresy speaking expositors whose proclamations are more scholarly persuasive by far than their pastor's sermonizing.

    I yet recall sitting in Tim LaHaye's office one day being lectured that tongues have ceased because the perfect of 1 Cor 13=the completion of the NT. This is nearly exegetially impossible I now know. (I am not much a charismatic in the popular sense) .

    I yet recall hearing it elsewhere preached that according to the KJV of John 4:2 Jesus baptised his disciples. When I pointed out to the preacher that as the the word for disciples is in the nominative case they are the ones baptising not Jesus, he became indignant. IMO pastors should connect their teaching to the originals. The man had just carelessly misinterpreted that Scripture of Jo 4:2 while carring out his teaching duty. The pastor's duty is not just to be become a "success" it is to be faithful in interpreting the Scripture.

    Points of sermons or SS lessons or personal discipling should be based on Biblical texts and the meaning of these texts need to be elicited if at all possible from a proper understanding of those Scriptures. This true understanding is best assured by applying exegesis in the pastor's study whether or not the particulars of those studies are shared in the delivery of the sermon or in other forms of instruction.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 1, 2004
  9. philosophy

    philosophy New Member

    comment

    I find all this discussion about Louisiana Baptist University rather interesting. The discussion started out whether or not LBU is considered to be a diploma mill. We would venture to say for the most part that this school doesn’t seem to fit into the mold of what we would consider to be the term “diploma mill.”

    The next discussions seem to be about who is better educated. Is it the person who has the language requirements of Greek and Hebrew? Perhaps, it is the person who holds the unaccredited “Doctorates” from these peculiar religious institutions. Who knows? So, what started out as whether or not LBU is a diploma mill and a reputable school has now turned into a lengthy discussion about who is going to talk to who, and if you offend me, then I will no longer feel justified in talking with you.

    I think that the issue comes down to what Socrates would say “Define Your Terms.” The terms that one uses in justifying credentials from unaccredited sources, to me tells you that this is not a good source or path to go down. You are only hurting yourself and those that you intend to con into believing that your credential is just as valid, as the person who has gone to a reputable accredited school (DETC, TRACTS, ATS, or RA), is simply absurd. Heidegger, a German Philosopher, tells us that in order for us to discover ourselves, we should pursue what he calls “being authentic.” Authenticity comes from various sources, and just like when Derek Jeter signs an autograph baseball, it is authenticated by Steiner, which is a very reputable source to validate that such item is real and authentic. This reminds me of the Coke commercial, “The Real Thing.” People can judge a book by its cover, and why would one want to put themselves through such controversy in the first place.

    Perhaps, at one time there might have been reason to go to the path of least resistance because there was not the flexibility or choices of educational methods of learning. However, today there is no need to not pursue the real, authentic, and valid way of getting a credential and that is to get one from a reputable source. That’s what it ultimately comes down to. Otherwise, take the piece of paper and consider it not worth the paper that it is written on.

    Side note: One other bit of information. When checking out the credentials for Dr. Weaver and some of the other people associated with LBU – some of these schools are not listed when doing a search engine. Perhaps, they too are non-accredited. Just like when telling a lie, it becomes a big pile, and then another big pile, until it is too late, that it is so big that even some of the most intelligent people can convince others into thinking that this way of learning is legitimate.

    With respect to the languages requirement, I think that it is better to have all the information available at your disposal. You want to make sure that you understand what something means. It is just like some would say that taking courses like Art, Theatre, or Music as a requirement is not necessary. However, it is necessary because it allows you to see the bigger picture. As far as all these lucrative titles of Th.D, Ph.D. and so forth – the average everyday person doesn’t associate with people by these titles, and even the people that have such valid credentials in most cases have a person relationship and don’t allow their titles to get the best of them. Such people should be respected, but the title should not become their whole life.
     
  10. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    Re: comment

    ===

    Good points, thanks.
     
  11. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Hi Phi (sorry, the abbreviation was too good to resist): Thanks for the thoughtful post.

    You raise an interesting issue that I had noticed and then forgotten about for the nonce: the unfindable schools from which LBU personnel have graduated. Seems there was a "Holy Trinity Seminary" IIRC, which I think we can presume was neither the diocesan seminary of the R.C. diocese of Dallas nor the school connected with the "synòd" Russian Orthodox monastery in Jordanville. Beats me. I don't know that this shows a lie--unless these unfindables are mills, which may very well be--but it sure raises a question or two.
    _______________________________________

    I don't care if you offend me, BTW. Bring up Heidegger the Nazi all you want, 's OK.
    Just leave that SOB Antiochus of Ascalon out of it, if'n you know what's good for you.
    Of course, A of A didn't bang Hannah Arendt while humming the Horsewhistle...
    M.H.: "Ooh, Schatzi, meine Fahne ist hoch!"
    H.A.: "Did I tell you I was Presbyterian?"
    _______________________________________

    Who is this Jeter?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 1, 2004
  12. Way

    Way New Member

    testing to see if I can get this posted.
     
  13. Way

    Way New Member

    LBU

    I agree that LBU has many teachers that have their own degrees from LBU. There are some that have their ThD and PhD from accredited graduate programs. They sure need more but LBU improves in this area ever year.....at least looking over the new college catalog I've gotten for each of the past three years.
     
  14. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    Re: LBU

    ===

    That's good, Way! Why do you think LBU thinks they need more profs with accredited docs?

    Why do you yourself believe, "... they sure need more," and that more equals improvement?

    And, are those with accredited docs in Bible/Theology regular full-time faculty or are they just adjunct?
     
  15. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    Unk asks, what the heck is Holy Trinity Seminary where some LBU profs get docs?
     
  16. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    Hey, I can post. That proves God is on my side. Also, I heard rumblings in my computer like angels trying to get in but demons trying to keep them outl :D
     
  17. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    Charles,

    Thank you SO much for finding this. I haven't had such a good laugh in a long time. Of course, Jason did not visit a Mormon temple at all, but simply attended a regular Sunday service in one of the thousands of LDS meetinghouses (he doesn't appear to know the difference).

    I enjoyed the howlingly funny quote about the Book of Mormon that you included in your post, as well as the account of the "low rumbling..it was eerie" (living in San Diego, you'd think that he would recognize a California earthquake...or maybe it was one of the organ's bass pedals). Imagine, God's angels rendered completely helpless by demons guarding the church doors. I couldn't make up something this hilarious.

    You left out following gems (found on the same web page):

    "many of their hymns had the same names as well known hymns and songs. However, they had very different words. The organ played while the people sang. They sang very well and it sounded eerie. It was unnerving. As soon as I sat down, near the back, my heart raced. I was shaking a little, so I prayed for peace. I didn't get it, immediately, so I prayed fervently."

    "The lay people wore white shirts and ties. It was ironic that I wore a with (sic) shirt, too. I don't think I planned this."


    Since hearing an organ playing and good singing causes Jason such severe physical trauma, if he should ever visit my church, we will make sure that only the piano is playing and we will try to sing as poorly as we can. Maybe that will seem less "eerie" and will spare the poor man's nerve.

    I'm not sure that I see the irony that Jason wore a shirt to church and found that LDS men also wore shirts. If he looked closely, I'm certain that he would have found it equally ironic that both he and those Mormons wore pants and shoes as well.

    Jason claims to "have studied Mormon doctrines a lot", although absolutely nothing at all on his ridiculous website would betray that fact. If his website is any indication of the level of his scholarly abilites, any academic institution (including LBU) would be ill advised to risk its reputation by awarding him a doctorate, particularly in any field related to religion or theology. Perhaps a Universal Life doctorate would be more appropriate.

    Tony

    P.S. Jason, I am usually not so caustic in my posts. But, honestly, the stuff that you have published about my church is so inane. You really ought to be ashamed. You could learn a lot from the likes of Bill Grover.
     
  18. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

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    Thanks Tony

    Tony was kind enough to subject himself to some inquiries about the LDS church to which he belongs. His scholarly answers to some very tough questions could be reviewed by searching this board. Tony and I obviously disagree about religion as I am an evangelical, but I certainly respect his knowledge. I also value his friendship.
     
  19. Jim Crouch

    Jim Crouch New Member

    LBU

    I have enjoyed the dialogue, noted a few things about LBU I'd like to post:

    Unlike "some" unaccredited DL schools, they make no claim to accreditation. This is admirable. Bill has a point regarding the need for some theological school officials to give a report. At least they are up front.

    Also to their credit, they don't practice the "usary" common in Christian schools. The Sem I attended charges 12% at a time when you have to have bad credit to pay that much in a secular financial institution. Others are charging as much as 18%, all in the name of training servants for the kingdom. Would that the dead would bury the dead!

    RE Greek and Hebrew: I noticed two things.
    1. Their courses are defined as giving the ability to use "tools," not the language. This is good, but not for anyone who hopes to deal with the inspired Scriptures. After all, when we read our English translation, we are only examining interpretations of copies. The better grasp we have of the original, the better we can understand the intended message. Sounds like a good course for a church education program, certainly not for one hoping to involve himself in rigorous academic study.

    2. They seem to be of the KJV only crowd. I suspect that they then feel that their KJV translation (an archaic translation of an inferior copy of the inspired text) is sufficient. It is sad that most Bible teachers use the Greek (or Hebrew) in ways that violate language itself. Though Strongs is very useful for the laymen, it certainly is not a Greek tool and when one uses it to discover what the Greek word "means," meaning is oftentimes confused with desired understanding of the text.

    As a final note, the only reason I can imagine that one would desire a ThD through such a program would be for the sake of having the degree itself, not demonstrating academic achievement. Unless of course you wanted to teach at that school.

    Jim
     
  20. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    Re: LBU

     

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