Louisiana Baptist University

I do not believe this is a mill based on my own experiences now and the comments of others. I understand that some will consider LBU a degree mill but I would suggest to then that they thoroughly investigate the schoold before judging it so harshly.

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Only someone who is ignorant about LBU could call it a degree mill. By definition, a degree mill is an institution that sends a degree to someone for a sum of money. We are studying diligently, for years, to earn our degree from LBU. Therefore, the degree mill assertion is ridiculous.

God bless you and your studies.

Jason

P.S. With all due respect, it's a little hard to believe that you study for LBU for 40 hours a week and literally pray every day about attending LBU. I'm assuming you are exaggerating. Generally, a full-time graduate student takes 9-12 credits a semester which equals around 9-12 hours of class attendance each week. My current workbook should take me 40-45 hours, so if you were to work at my pace, you would complete one LBU workbook each week!!!! At that pace, you would have the degree completed in about 1 semester.

 

Let's all admit, for the sake of, well, something, that Bill's ThM from Western is more rigorous than anything LBU offers.

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I'm not familiar with Western. Can someone tell me about this school?

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Sincerely,
Jason

 

I do take exception however, to your comment that only people who cannot get into accredited colleges seek entance into unaccredited ones.

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I disproved this as well. I've attended three regionally accredited schools (Azusa Pacific Seminary, Westminister Seminary, and Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary) and have opted for Louisiana Baptist University. It's a perfect fit for me. Glory to God.

Sincerely,
Jason

P.S. Please excuse the multiple posts. They were in response to multiple posts.

 

Hi Jason:

Way's thoughtfulness speaks better of LBU than your truculence.

Does the average pastor need to be a Bill Grover in his command of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, conspicuously adorning his almae matres with his learning? No, but the average pastor doesn't need a doctorate--earned or honorary--either.

As a holder of a doctorate, you may think--tell me if I am wrong--that it shows a commendable zeal to show oneself approved, so to speak. Does not the study of Greek or Hebrew (the languages chosen by the Holy Ghost to impart the inerrant Scripture), beyond a simplistic "art appreciation" course, show a similar and indeed more Christ-like zeal, inasmuch as our Lord explained the (Hebrew) Scriptures to His (Aramaic-speaking) audience?

I simply cannot believe, whatever the weaknesses of LBU may (or may not) be, that LBU endorses your dismissal of Greek study. If it does endorse this p.o.v., please document that for the edification of all, and I will gladly withdraw my cavil at your representing LBU.

 

Hi Janko,

How are you doing?

JANKO:
Way's thoughtfulness speaks better of LBU than your truculence.

JASON:
Thanks for your input. I don't feel that I was truculent at all.

JANKO:
Does the average pastor need to be a Bill Grover in his command of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, conspicuously adorning his almae matres with his learning? No, but the average pastor doesn't need a doctorate--earned or honorary--either.

As a holder of a doctorate, you may think--tell me if I am wrong--that it shows a commendable zeal to show oneself approved, so to speak. Does not the study of Greek or Hebrew (the languages chosen by the Holy Ghost to impart the inerrant Scripture), beyond a simplistic "art appreciation" course, show a similar and indeed more Christ-like zeal, inasmuch as our Lord explained the (Hebrew) Scriptures to His (Aramaic-speaking) audience?

JASON:
This is an important issue that you raise. I have mixed feelings for someone who simply wants to be a sponge when it comes to education. You are implying that there is great value in one studying Greek with personal enrichment being the only goal. We'll have to wait and see if someone can show us why a mastery of ancient Greek is necessary and how it can give personal enrichment. At any rate, I do not believe that is the best reason for education. My pastor continually informs us that we should all be doing something with our gifts and talents. The sermon applies to one's education as well.

In my experience, I learn and teach. I'm blessed and I share what I learn with others. You can see this in the links I provided and in my weekly message. Link: http://devos.jcsm.org . I think we'd be hardpressed to find someone who would claim that mastering Greek simply for their own good is a wise investment of time and resources.

JANKO:
I simply cannot believe, whatever the weaknesses of LBU may (or may not) be, that LBU endorses your dismissal of Greek study. If it does endorse this p.o.v., please document that for the edification of all, and I will gladly withdraw my cavil at your representing LBU.

JASON:
I don't have any additional information to give you. I've already shown the depth of Greek required to enter the Th.D. program (according to LBU's entrance prerequisites) and the depth of Greek they expect their graduates to possess (according to the course work they require).

What are your interests in theology? Why are you seeking a D.Min. degree? Are you in ministry?

Have a good night.

God bless,
Jason

 

Biblical Languages

It's been said that if you need to ask how much something costs, you can't afford it. When it comes to the biblical languages, if you need to ask how they can enrich your spiritual life and ministry, you don't know them.

As for the examples of pastors who don't flaunt linguistic prowess in their sermons, this establishes little regarding the value of the biblical languages. Even in seminaries that hammer home the importance of the languages, students are taught to communicate responsibly to their audiences. Churches are filled with people who wouldn't recognize a Hebrew or Greek letter if it jumped up and bit 'em in the backside, never mind anything more complicated. So why would a pastor discuss such things? My medical doctor speaks to me in a language that my lay mind can grasp, but I sure hope his diagnoses reflect a rigorous understanding of the most technical details.

 

Re: Biblical Languages

Hi Ed,

Thanks for your post and for your email. I'll respond to your email, soon.

ED:
It's been said that if you need to ask how much something costs, you can't afford it. When it comes to the biblical languages, if you need to ask how they can enrich your spiritual life and ministry, you don't know them.

JASON:
Being wise with one's money is a good thing.

I've yet to read anything of substance regarding the necessity for a mastery of ancient Greek; even from Ed or Bill that apparently have a significant background in ancient Greek.

ED:
As for the examples of pastors who don't flaunt linguistic prowess in their sermons, this establishes little regarding the value of the biblical languages.

JASON:
I never suggested flaunting. Flaunting would be foolish. I mentioned teaching.

ED:
Even in seminaries that hammer home the importance of the languages, students are taught to communicate responsibly to their audiences. Churches are filled with people who wouldn't recognize a Hebrew or Greek letter if it jumped up and bit 'em in the backside, never mind anything more complicated. So why would a pastor discuss such things?

JASON:
If a person is required to master something that they could never discuss or teach, then what would the point be? Jesus Christ taught simple things and He taught deep things. I don't remember him teaching Hebrew, though.

ED:
My medical doctor speaks to me in a language that my lay mind can grasp, but I sure hope his diagnoses reflect a rigorous understanding of the most technical details.

JASON:
A pastor doesn't need to master Greek to diagnose his congregation's needs or the effects of sin. And let's hope he doesn't perform any surgery.

God bless you, Ed.

Jason

 

===


Way

I again will say that I mean no insult to the character of anyone connected to LBU. My ONLY concern is that the advanced study of the Bible be done at the grad level with genuine rigor. If the languages are not used this is not happening.

Please show me where I said that, "...only people who cannot get into accredited colleges seek entrance into accredited ones."

I did not say that! I said,"...in some cases."

Way, I think it is very important both in exegeis of Scripture and in personal communication to respond to what the other actually says.

In regard to your issue of cost, my Unizul doc will cost under $2500 and it is the equivalent of RA.

 

No, Bill, the fact that your command of Greek excels most of ours (not Ed's, presumably, but most certainly mine) gives you an authority to speak on the merits of learning Greek which is, in fact, independent of what degrees you have or where you earned them.

The fact that I taught classical Latin and Greek for several years gives me a little authority to speak on the topic, though I candidly admit that I am not much of an exegete and that I know (or knew) a lot more about classical Greek authors' use of the language than about the NT writers' use of it, or the Fathers'.

What I candidly admit to despising is not the absence of Greek in a pastor's education, although that is regrettable. I lived with that lacuna for my first several years in the ministry and was glad when (via a summer intensive on Aristotle with a bunch of philosophy PhD students and me, the pore ole philology zhlub) that gap was filled. What I despise and condemn is the idea that learning anything is a waste of time. Snidely dismissing learning Greek particularly disgraces someone who holds to the inerrancy of Scripture in the original autographs. Let me offer an example that does not drag demeaning the sovereignty and choices of the Holy Ghost into it.

I spent many years studying the works of Cicero, the Roman statesman and writer. Now, if someone comes to me, particularly if she is are decorated with a doctorate (as I am not), and that doctorate is in, say, philosophy or political science (not my fields), and says that she is an expert on Cicero's thought, I will be inclined to believe her and to listen with interest to what she has to say on Tully.

As the conversation goes on, I find that she is attributing concepts and views to Cicero that do not square with what I remember from reading him. At first, I will likely lament my admittedly weak memory and find myself making mental notes about needed revisions to my own awareness of Cicero. Well and good. But then, either through direct assertion (as on this thread, mutatis mutandis) or through a slip of the tongue, my interlocutor admits with an airy dismissal on time-management or other utilitarian grounds that she does not know Latin, even on the "reading knowledge" level expected for a PhD in other fields but concentrating on a Roman author!

Lordy, Lordy! At this point, the old Carpathian's bullshit detector starts beeping annoyingly, and I come to the conclusion that my interlocutor is either a) full of crap as a Christmas turkey in her assertions about dear old Marcus, or b) has managed by sheer dumb luck or ancillary study to be right despite the arrogant stupidity of never reading the man in the original, and yet claiming expertise about him.

Now, if this is the scenario concerning the writings of a dead Roman, how much the more must a similar revulsion apply toward a pretended expertise, similarly dismissive of the original language texts, in the oracles of the living God!

Mr Way makes no such claims. Dr Gastrich does. Accordingly, Mr Way's modesty speaks far better of LBU, whatever LBU's limitations, than do Dr Gastrich's airy dismissals of the value to a cleric of reading the Word of God in the original languages.

 

===

Unk

As usual , IMO, you are as deadly accurate as were the arrows of my Cherokee-Osage forefathers except for what you say about me.

I am NO Greek scholar. I must in fact labor over each and every exegetical point on the NT ; my Hebrew is worse. It is extremely time consuming for me to respond to the arguments in the literature , which are regularly based on the Biblical languages, which are proffered by those who adhere to the Logos-Sarx view of the incarnation and to the eternality of a functional hierarchy in God. The fact really is, that those who do not use the Biblical languages do not even know what are the problems in exegesis of many a text, much less having a solid basis from the KJV to support their answers.

I must be doing OK though as my DTS reader so far sees no difficulties with my hermeneutics only with the length of my paragraphing and with the complexity of my sentence structure . But he has not seen the next now completed chapter, about 50 pages, which mostly is an exegesis of Philippians 2:6 and my own twist on the effects of the Incarnation. And as for Aramaic which you attribute to me above, I know absolutely nothing.

Nevertheless with your kind remarks to me and your boldness toward Dr. Gastrich, who apparently sees no connection between a PhD in Bible and Heb/Grk, I am reminded once again why you are my favorite uncle.

Again, I hope my Christological research is worthwhile. I hope it glorifies Him. I've so oft been a failure for Christ, I do not wish to be one again in this regard.

Thanks,

 

Jason Gastrich's assertions on the value of the original languages are his own, and do not appear to reflect the position of LBU.

From the 2003-2004 LBU catalog:

The MDiv language requirement is 6 hours of Greek, plus 6 hours of Hebrew.

Admission to the Th.D. requires familiarity with the biblical languages.

Now, one may argue that familiarity with the biblical languages could be defined as knowing how to spell the words GREEK and HEBREW. However, with the 12 hour language requirement for LBU's MDiv, one would think that the familiarity with the biblical languages requirement encompasses more than merely knowing the definition of the word agape.

 

===

Russell:

I just looked again at the LBU site. Help me to see where I'm wrong. The PhD in Bible can be entered with an LBU MA in Bible. Right? But there are no courses listed in the MA in Bible dealing with Heb/Grk. Right? So, one can enter the PhD in Bible at LBU and finish it with no Biblical languages. Isn't that right? Craig told me he took not ONE course in Greek exegeis to get the ThD! If I am wrong, please show how. I don't mind being corrected about this. Such a condition exists no where else in any US accredited evangelical seminary!

 

Bill,

In perusing the LBU catalog, it appears that the Th.D. has a more specified language requirement.

Regarding the Ph.D., the catalog states, the person admitted to our Ph.D. program must have the appropriate academic background as well as the initiative and self-discipline and the research skills necessary to succeed in such a program.

The Ph.D. student is required to prepare and present a dissertation that shows competent independent investigation of a subject area and is acceptable in form and content to the student's doctoral committee. It is necessary that the work be of publishable quality. The dissertation must exhibit originality and thoroughness of research and must be an exhaustive treatment of the subject chosen...the material should reflect the high quality of research and knowledge expected of a Doctor of Philosophy degree candidate.

It appears that the Th.D. focuses more on biblical studies than does the Ph.D. While the nomenclature is "Ph.D. in Bible/Theology," the emphasis of the Ph.D. is more in alignment with practical theology. LBU's School of Biblical Studies offers four concentrations: Pastoral Ministries, Student Ministries, Educational Administration (for educational directors or administrative pastors) and Evangelism. The Seminary offers the Th.D. in Systematic Theology, Pastoral Theology and Prophetic Studies.

 

Vladica: Thank you for the clarification, whatever the disjunct between the LBU site (which I have seen) and the catalogue (which I have not seen).

-------------------------------------

Dr Gastrich:

Never mind your wilful ignorance about the original languages of the inerrant infallible Word of God. If you did not sport a doctorate--which most of us pore dumb yahoos will take as an indication of learning--your know-nothingism might well be a harmless cultural affectation on the part of a backwoods preacher of a certain type beloved of Hollywood screenwriters and others who regard Christianity as a semi-psychotic aberration of the ignorant and backward. It might be theologically arguable--according to a theology which I do not espouse--that as long as you got them notches on your gun from "decisions" hit don't matter if you know no Greek nohow as long as yew git 'em saved. Mebbe so, mebbe no.

But since you have said that you don't care what LBU's stance on the Greek issue is, why in the name of Juppiter Stator and Cicero's pocket Minerva are you posting on a thread about LBU, and confusing your arrant defense of ignorance with real or imagined deficiencies in the LBU curriculum? *If you don't care about LBU, stop muddying the waters of a discussion about LBU.*

Start your own thread in off-topic about why ignorance is better than knowledge. Be sure to let us know that you are a doctor. This will confuse your adversaries (whose number your philistinism has increased from zero to ?) and puzzle your friends. Perhaps we all have been lopsided in thinking this a forum about distance learning. In the interest of fairness, perhaps we should try to give some time over to distance ignorance as well.

 

Your chacterization of me and someone who doesn't master Greek is pathetic and ridiculous.

I see that you don't respect me or the fact that I was willing and able to articulate a typical LBU DL course and show their alumni in great detail. You had claimed that you were considering a graduate degree at a university like LBU, but you ignored my questions about your claim. By the way you are acting, it seems that you wish you could remain ignorant about LBU.

Sincerely,
Jason