Louisiana Baptist University

Hi Way,

It's nice to meet another LBU student and alumni. What will you be doing with your degree and the results of your education?

God bless,
Jason

 

Hi Jason,

It is very nice to meet you as well. I am not training to be a pastor or even an educator. I have a very deep love for Jesus and Eschatology. The study of "the end of all things", in God's program, has been an abiding interest for me since I got saved in 1985. I do agree with many of the people who post here that, perhaps, LBU would do well to offer a Doctor of Arts degree instead of the PhD but it is the study of this area that is more important to me than the degree itself. I know that God has a plan for this education and will use it to glorify Him. In the meantime, I have an evangelical music ministry with an outreach to those who do not know Christ and have been involved in that in one way or another for ten years. Please keep in touch as I would like ot hear/share about your experiences with LBU. God bless.

 

Who is your academic advisor at LBU? Mine is Dr. Wallace.

Did you go to Shreveport for your graduation ceremony? I was unable to attend, but I'll be there in May of 2005 to receive my Ph.D. in Biblical Studies. Hopefully, I'll make a little vacation out of the trip.

I hope God blesses your music ministry. I'm a musician as well. You may enjoy my arhcive of MP3s, lyrics, and chords. Link: http://60songs.jcsm.org .

Have you considered putting your notes and papers online? They could encourage seekers. I have an archive of much of my graduate work online. You can see it here: http://seminaries.jcsm.org .

God bless and have a great day.

Jason

 

Hi Jason,

I am with Dr. Combs. Dr. Wallace was the one who helped me enroll. I also did not attend graduation because it was cost prohibitive at the time to do so. I enjoy my studies very much and they are so interesting. It you get the chance, the website of my band is www.peculiarpeople.cjb.net I look forward to hearing more from you in the future. Good luck with your studies.

 

Hi Way,

Looks good. Do you have any music online?

I run a web hosting and services company called NKJV. If you ever want your own domain name, hosting, or anything web related, let me know. Site: http://nkjv.org .

I spoke to Dr. Combs a few times when I was considering LBU's Th.D. program. I was enticed by the prospect of Chuck Missler being my mentor. He even gave me Chuck's email address and I contacted him. It took awhle for him to respond and I found that he was too busy to be an active mentor.

Dr. Combs was extremely busy and forgetful. Several times, he told me he was going to send me something, but he never did. One thing he was going to send was a book that he wrote. He was in the process of moving and selling a home, so this was part of the reason for his oversights.

After those experiences and some prayer and wise counsel, I decided to get my Ph.D. in Biblical Studies instead of the Th.D. It was a better program for me and I was able to keep my Master's mentor - Dr. Wallace. I had cultivated a relationship with him and was thrilled to pursue the Ph.D. Right now, I have 15 credits completed.

I should mention that I became somewhat familiar with Liberty University's distance learning program. I attended Liberty's campus program and often heard about the tapes that people could use at home (and the assignments and tests). Even though Liberty is regionally accredited, their distance learning program seemed no better than LBU's.

God bless,
Jason

 

Jason,

Was the book "Rainbows from Revelation?" I have that book. I believe our band has an MP3 but the person in our band who does all the computer work will have to confirm that to me and I will let you know. Along with Chuck Missler there is Tim LaHaye and Grant Jeffrey who are affiliated with LBU. What will be your study of interest in your PhD in Bible/Theology at LBU?

 

That reminds me. I meant to ask you if you went to the Pre-Trib Research meeting in Dallas. Tim LaHaye and Tommy Ice run that group. By being an LBU student, you are allowed to attend the conference in December. I wanted to go, but I wasn't able to attend. Maybe next year.

The name of the book you mentioned sounds familiar. It may be the one he offered me. Dr. Combs helped with Tim LaHaye's Prophecy Study Bible. Tim gave me a copy in Colorado Springs, at a Steeling the Mind Conference, and it's fantastic.

Tim LaHaye is loosely affiliated with LBU. I don't think he is a mentor or advisor. In fact, I'm not sure how he is involved.

Grant Jeffrey received an honorary doctorate degree from LBU. He is listed as a potential mentor for LBU's Th.D. program (just like Chuck Missler is listed).

I've made a web page for LBU's alumni. If you would like me to add you to it, please email me a paragraph or two for your bio and a mugshot. Here is the page: http://jcsm.net/LBU/LBUAlumni.htm .

I'm taking a variety of interesting classes in my Ph.D. program. Right now, I'm studying Christian philosophy. Even though they send us three courses at a time, I still prefer to take them one at a time. "Life in Bible Times" and "The Gospel of John" are the other courses I have with me. I also have several others to take.

God bless,
Jason

P.S. Recently, I was chatting about LBU on usenet. I summarized one of my courses because someone was calling LBU a degree mill. In case you want to send this to someone or in case someone else is interested, here is how I characterized a course at LBU.


The course I'm currently taking is called Christian Philosophy. The book is over 200 pages long. My workbook consists of over 300 questions (fill-in, short answer, essay, multiple short answers (not multiple choice, but giving several answers for one question, etc.). They must be completed and I must get over a 93% for an A.

Throughout this course, many papers are required. They are to be typed, they must follow a given format, and be without errors. I must write a total of 12 papers and they range between 1-4 pages per paper (usually 2 or 4 pages). Once again, a 93% or above is required for an A on the papers.

I'm estimating that the workbook will take me 40-45 hours to complete. The papers will take me many more hours. It may take another student a bit longer or a bit less. I suppose I work at a normal pace.

After the book is read, the entire workbook is completed, and all of the papers are written, I send them to LBU for grading. They return the workbook and papers with a grade and send me the final exam. I must take it without any notes and with a proctor present. The proctor signs the paper to say that I didn't cheat. I must also earn a 93% or above for an A on the final exam.

This is the gist for an LBU class via distance learning. The Ph.D. program requires a Bachelors degree, a Masters degree, and 60 Ph.D. credits. Courses are 3 credits a piece. The required dissertation counts as 15 credits.

 

===

I have asked Craig who has a ThD from LBU/S. Craig said he took no course in the Greek exegesis of a NT Book. I thought possibly the condition had changed in which LBU grants PhDs/ThDs in Bible without even the prerequisites of entering an acrredited (ATS) ThM. Guess not.

 

Hi Bill,

I hope you are well, today.

I just realized that your signature was your education. I hadn't read it very closely until now. It looks like you are well educated in secular, Christian, and Catholic schools. You have a variety of interests! If you want, you can seem my resume here: http://jcsm.org/MISC/Resume.htm .

When you list the University of San Diego as a place where you teached, I'm assuming you mean USDHS. Right? The University of San Diego High School? Your secondary teaching credential would allow you to teach at the HS, but probably not the university. Incidentally, I'm the soccer coach for the Clairemont High School JV boys team and we play USDHS in about a week. They have a good team, so it should be an exciting game.

A few years ago, I took a Greek course at Westminster Theological Seminary in Escondido. It was an intense class and Dr. Baugh was my teacher. At one point, I decided to approach Dr. Baugh privately and ask him about the Greek. I asked him how much of the KJV was truly mistranslated to the point where Christians should have an intimate knowledge of the ancient Greek language. He was unable to show me anything meaningful. In other words, Christians with a working knowledge of Greek and with an English Bible are receiving essentially the same message as those that know ancient Greek very well. This caused me to avoid taking my Greek studies to a higher level. Unless I wanted to be a Greek teacher, there was really no need.

I'm holding the leaflet that LBU/S uses for their Th.D. program. As far as I know, they offer only one Th.D. and it's in Advanced Prophetic Studies. This is why Chuck Missler and Grant Jeffrey are mentors.

Anyhow, here is a snippet about original languages.

Prerequisites to Enrolling in This Program

1. A recognized Bachelor's degree . . .
2. A recognized Master's degree . . .
3. Familiarity with New Testament Greek and/or Hebrew.

Those without a biblical language may take a video course in Greek or Hebrew Appreciation for credit during their enrollment period. Ability to use basic tools for language studies intelligently must be demonstrated prior to receiving the Th.D. The MTS in Advanced Prophetics from the Seminaries or the University is a foundation. Use of the Hebrew-Greek Keyword Study Bible (keyed to Strong's Concordance and edited by Spiros Zodhiates) is encouraged.

--

There is a long list of courses that can accompany a Th.D. degree. Besides the video courses I just mentioned, I don't recognize any that are solely regarding Greek. This is likely because a distance education program in an ancient language like Greek would be very difficult and possibly even impossible. Classroom or video instruction would be much more fruitful than self-directed study for a variety of reasons.

God bless,
Jason

 

Hi Jason,

Are you sure that Grant Jeffery has an honorary degree from LBU? The website regarding alumni states that he has an earned doctorate. Also, I read one of his books in which his bio states that he earned his doctorate from LBU.

 

Oops. You're right. Grant Jeffrey earned his M.A. and Ph.D. from LBU. Sorry for the mistake.

JG

 

I heard something about this false claim, but I haven't verified it.

===


What false claim? If you've not verified it, then how do you know it is "false"?

===

JASON:

I was referring to the claim by LBU regarding false credentials; not that the claim against LBU was false. As I said, I haven't verified it.

--

According to the handbook, Dr. Wallace has Doctorate degrees from Baptist Christian University, Louisiana Baptist Theological Seminary, and Louisiana Baptist University. Perhaps he received another Doctorate that isn't listed or perhaps you are wrong.

===


Perhaps I am wrong and he only has three unaccredited doctorates not four unaccredited doctorates. BCU was what LBU is now. So, his three doctorates are all from the same school wherein he teaches.



===
Dr. Wallace is my advisor ... regardless of what any organization says about him, I'm sure he would be a fine teacher. I'm certain that diligent Bible students could learn great things from his teachings and his experiences.

===

Regardless huh? Well no, it is not just about Dr., Dr., Dr. Wallace. Though I'm sure that with *three* docs Dr Wallace is much more competent than, say, my Greek exegesis prof at Western with his measly ThD from Dallas or my theology prof with his insignificant one Fuller doc. Boy, my South African promoter has only one doc too. I was really cheated!

It rather is about the professorial academic qualifications of any who teach Bible, not just people talking about Wallace. So , regardless of whether or not the theologically conservative educators who run the theological conservative national accrediting associations, ie AABC and TRACS, say that to teach freshman Bible one should have an accredited ThM (AABC) or to teach grad Bible one should have an accredited PhD/ThD (TRACS) , you are convinced that they are really wrong in making this standard ?

===

JASON:

I never said the standard was wrong. I said that Dr. Wallace would be a great teacher.

--

As I was mentioning earlier, one's career goals should be a major factor when determining which school to attend.

===

Well yes, but one doesn't need two of what are considered academic doctorates in your line of work, does one? And a doctoral degree in Bible is an academic degree, not so? It is not a ministry degree. Do you think the actual rigor of a program should be a consideration as well as one's career goals? Hmmm, I wonder what would be one good way to measure the rigor of a doc program in Bible? Now certainly one could not get a doc inFrench literature just by using English translations I suppose.

--

JASON:

My studies have enhanced my life and my ministry. My education has blessed others because my ministry is an overflow of what God teaches me. Glory to Him.

--

So,let my pointedly ask you: If a doctorate in Bible is awarded to someone by LBU/S who is in fact unable to exegete Scriptures in the original languages-- even at the lower level which is required of ATS accredited ThM programs in Bible-- you really see nothing wrong with this? You still would consider that LBU/S doctorate in Bible nevertheless to be a "rigorous research" program(from LBU website) even if it required very little use of the original languages?

--

JASON:

Nope. I only stated that Dr. Wallace is a great man with many great things he could teach. I don't know if he could teach Physics or Chemistry, but I'm sure he could teach a variety of things. I'm not sure about his background and expertise regarding original languages, so I won't make a judgment on teaching them.

--

Now if I am wrong about LBU/S and if it is rather true that they expect the same degree of competency in exegesis of the Bible that other evangelical, but accredited schools require, then I will here publically apologize in all CAPITAL LETTERS. I care about how the Bible is studied at grad levels, but I do not wish to criticise LBU on the basis of faulty information. I've now asked three doc students in the LBU programs with no confirmation that in terms of exegesis in the originals the LBU program is at all rigorous.

===

One last thing that may be more important than everything else we have discussed is the university's Statement of Beliefs. I would NEVER attend a theological graduate school from a university like Cal Berkeley, UCLA, SDSU, etc. because they do not hold the Bible and Jesus Christ in high enough esteem. They do not affirm the Bible's inerrancy or the divinity of Jesus Christ. Therefore, I would receive false teachings; even from the "brilliant" professors at those institutions.

===

I see your point. These schools you name, of course, do not offer a DL doc in Bible. They require some residency. But if one can do some residency, there are accredited doctoral programs in Bible offered by evangelical schools which adhere to the deity of Christ and to the inerrancy of Scripture. These include Dallas, Southern Baptist, The Master's Seminary, and Biblical Baptist. In the last much can be done by DL, but not all. Why not go accredited then?

--
JASON:

First, my point wasn't simply about residency. It was about a Statement of Beliefs.

I'm familiar with DTS. It has had the reputation for a fantastic school and I respect Dr. Hannah and Dr. Swindoll and graduates like Dr. David Jeremiah, Mike Gendron, and Tony Evans. However, I have heard some things about the recent developments that don't sound promising.

Why not DTS? I don't live in Dallas and the other reasons I listed in my last message.
--

There also are GAAP , government universities ,as Unizul ,offering docs in Bible which require no residency at all and are really quite inexpensive.

Therefore unless one is in fact unable to meet the prerequisites --such as having an accredited masters or the languages --- of an accredited or GAAP doctoral program , I am at a loss to explain why one would choose an unaccredited program. In the case of LBU I suppose it may be that applicants belong to that denomination and consider that membership of ultimate importance. My hunch though that in some cases, not yours I guess, people choose unaccredited schools because they in fact cannot get into accredited or GAAP schools. Then these fall into the pattern of rationalizing their choice.

--

JASON:

Thanks for your input. In large part, I believe I answered this question of choice in my last post.

You snipped several things that I wrote; including your teaching at USDHS, the necessity for ancient Greek expertise, the diversity of your studies, etc. I won't bother you again about the things you skipped, but I wanted to mention them once.

God bless,
Jason

 

Bill is right; LBU offers a ThD in three tracks: a ThD in Systematic Theology, one in Pastoral Theology, and a ThD in advanced Prophetic studies.

 

Hi again Bill,

I hear all your concerns regarding what you believe to be important issues on DL and religious institutions especially. You have a great amount of knowledge that the Lord gave you. I do take exception however, to your comment that only people who cannot get into accredited colleges seek entance into unaccredited ones. I have no problems getting accepted by various accredtited school. The problem is paying for them. I do wish and pray that LBU gets accredited but in my heart of hearts, I believe that they are a God-serving, credible alternative to the expensive route. I go to the Lord daily about this issue and He keeps bringing me back to LBU. There is something there that He wants me to pursue and I will do ask He asks. I ask in a sincere way; just what did seminaries before accredidation, which is voluntary, do before there was such a buzz about it?

 

Can the old fart get a word in edgewise here?

Let's all admit, for the sake of, well, something, that Bill's ThM from Western is more rigorous than anything LBU offers. I believe this, and I believed it the first time Bill said it, too. Really. Also, he is picking up some martial training on the side at UZ and will transfix you with his cyberimpi if you don't admit this. Bill has already pinned his promoter to his office wall by the sweatshirt, and the lovely Miss Naidoo is hanging Christmas decorations on the little Pitcher with the big ears. So just watch it, guys. Bill really does know more than the rest of us. Really. I'm not kidding now.

[SIZE=!]whoosh...................................thwuck![/SIZE]

Seewhutimean?

I have an amiable interest in LBU. Unlike you olympians, I just putter about in the pig farm of church history. How were your experiences at LBU in that field and in dogmatics? I know it ain't glam next to prophecy and exegesis, but is it worthwhile at LBU?

 

Hi Unk,

I can only relate the experience I have had with them. I am currently taking a course in Eschatology with the book "Things to Come" by J.Dwight Pentecost. The course material is relevant to my study and keeps me engrossed. The professors are kind and respond to any requests with speed and professionalism. And based on my experience with ACCS, it is such a wonderful school. I truly believe, so far, that they are interested in serving the Lord to the best of their abilities. I recognize that they are unaccredited but am unaware of the reasons why. I do not believe this is a mill based on my own experiences now and the comments of others. I understand that some will consider LBU a degree mill but I would suggest to then that they thoroughly investigate the schoold before judging it so harshly.

 

Thanks, Way. I'm glad to hear that LBU is well-run compared to our friends at ACCS. I do not see it as a "mill". It may in some ways, such as those Bill pointed out, be substandard. As a long-time drum-banger for the DA, that might be a more modest nomenclature for a language-less doc than PhD. I'm not fully persuaded, but I'm not dismissive, either.

I'm vaguely looking for a worthwhile school that offers an all-distance DMin or something similar. My own denomination's seminary is unaccredited, so I am not (as I said above) categorically agin unaccredited schools. What I won't do is give 'em the benefit of the doubt, which is the reverse of my view of RA or NA schools. A UA school can, in my book, prove itself the worthy exception to the rule 1) with some difficulty and 2) on a case-by-case basis. It CAN do so, however.

Best wishes, Janko

 

===

Well, your Dr Baugh misinformed you or you misunderstood him. The grad NT student is "handicapped" without Greek. I'd be happy to demonstrate the truth of this claim for you.

===

Yes. Please do. Please illustrate why intensive courses in ancient Greek are necessary for the majority of Christian ministers and Christians in general. Please show what can be learned that cannot be learned by reading an English Bible and consulting Strong's Concordance and Dictionary.

Now, I recognize the need to have a general knowledge of Greek and Hebrew. I frequently read the Greek and Hebrew texts and use a Strong's to define the unfamiliar words. QuickVerse 7 is one of my resources. You can also visit my Study Center here: http://study.jcsm.org .

For some reason, you hold the mastery of ancient Greek in higher esteem than I do. I assert that the Christian student could better use his or her time studying other things. I also assert that only a person wanting to be a Greek teacher or a Bible translator needs to have a deep and complete knowledge of the ancient Greek.

I look forward to your argument to the contrary.

--

My friend, watching a video does not a Greek exegete make! Good laugh though!!!

===

I sense that you have a large sense of pride for your knowledge of Greek. I hope that you support the value of this knowledge and the many years of studying that you could have used studying other things and evangelizing. I hope you can articulate the fruit that has been born from your Greek studies and illustrate how it is blessing others as well.

Please note. I'm not asserting that one should remain ignorant of the ancient Greek language. However, a single course on it, like I have taken and like LBU offers, is sufficient IMHO for a Christian minister, pastor, or layperson.

Case in point. My home church employs Dr. David Jeremiah. He is a Dallas Theological Seminary graduate. He has had many years of graduate studies and intensive Greek courses. However, I cannot recall even one point or tidbit he taught us from Greek. Even if extensive Greek education could be worked into a sermon or Bible lesson, it isn't anything that I couldn't have learned it with a single course and/or a Strong's C/D. In all of my church experiences, including sermons from Greg Laurie, Chuck Smith, Tony Evans, Tim LaHaye, Chuck Missler, Ken Ham, etc. I haven't received magnificent Greek studies that have illustrated a need to study it for more than a single course.

Dr. Jeremiah is still a fantastic pastor with an awesome ministry. The fact remains, though, that the complete knowledge of ancient Greek has not manifested itself in wonderful fruit in my experience. It is simply good for Bible translators and Greek professors.

Please don't take my post as antagonistic. I'm simply expressing my opinions based on my research, education, and areas of interest. I surely don't mean to offend.

God bless,
Jason