Kennedy-Western University is moving towards accreditation in response to the new reg

All so called “Expert Critics” remind me of two 4 foot Midgets standing behind an 8 foot, completely sealed, privacy fence and one Midget is explaining to the other what is on the other side without ever seeing over or under the fence. If these Midgets continue, they will bring in more Midgets and they in turn will do the same: then untrue information will spread through the Midget world and the truth of what is behind the fence will never be known. These Midgets form conspiracy theories about what is behind the fence. "It's a Coverup, the are lieing, they are conspiring, it’s a Diploma Mill Facade, they say, while they roam about telling all who will listen. The Midgets form these opinions because they do not know the truth of what exists behind the fence. Some of these "Experts" will still insist in their beliefs, even if proven evidence should show the opposite.

Mill Apologist from the Umcampus of KYW.
PS: Not open for debate!

 

Other than being in support of KWU, I can't figure out what you mean.

If you have something specific to say, that would be interesting.

Dave

 

If I was to say that I was a student of KWU or an Alumnus, and spoke in the defense thereof, I would be immediately called a Mill Apologist.

bill947

 

Not at all.

If you want to explain/defend KWU, you're more than welcome to do so. However, you didn't get off to a very good start with the midget analogy above.

 

I am not defending KWU as I have no interest in the school at all. But being objective, people and situations can change. You can't always base judgment on the past. To believe otherwise is ignorance.

Are you aware that Califonia Coast University was also called a diploma mill in the federal investigation that included KWU and Pacific Western University? I will look up that link and post in this thread. I stumbled on it when I was looking up things on KWU.

Warren National University is not offering the number of degree that KWU is offering at the doctorate level. How do you conclude that KWU is changing its name? I recall that some of the same verbage was used when NCU came about and the connection with SCUPS. And yes, I will defend SCUPS.

IF - KWU is accredited, I hope that those who are making the negative remarks have the balls not to change their tune like happened when CCU became accredited. It doesn't make a bit of difference to me if they are accredited or not. But I will not make judgment on any school that is trying to improve itself.

 

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d041096t.pdf#search='diploma%20investigations'

Pacific Western University, California Coast University, and Kennedy-Western University provided data indicating that 463 of their students were federal employees. Pacific Western University reported that it could not locate any records indicating that federal payments were made, although this claim directly contradicts representations made to our undercover investigator by a school representative that federal agencies had paid for
degrees obtained by Pacific Western University students. California Coast University and Kennedy-Western University provided records indicating that they had received $150,387.80 from federal agencies for 14 California Coast University students and 50 Kennedy-Western University students.

Information we obtained from two unaccredited schools confirms that the federal government has paid for degrees at those schools. We asked four such schools that charge a flat fee for degrees to provide records of federal payments for student fees: California Coast University (Santa Ana, California); Hamilton University (Evanston, Wyoming); Pacific Western University (Los Angeles, California); and Kennedy-Western University
(Thousand Oaks, California).

source:

Statement of Robert J. Cramer
Managing Director
Office of Special Investigations

So, a now accredited university, CCU, has a history as being a diploma mill. It is guilty by association in this report.

 

Well I'll admit that the Midget theory was a littie harsh, but over the years the school has taken such a beating and those whom tried to defent it have also had to run the gauntlet. I guess I was over reacting to those times and need to apologize. I have a vested interest in KWU and say the program I went through does not come close to a "Diploma Mill."

bill947

 

Bill,

One of the problems with evaluating KWU here is that it seems whenever a student/alumnus appears, they get hyper-defensive when questioned, and simply disappear.

I (and I'm sure many others) would like to hear about your KWU experiences, and perhaps you can confirm/debunk some of the many things we've heard about them over the years.

 

Brece:

Yes, I was a Kennedy Western University Student and now an Alumnus. I know that I have obtaioned a good education..
Earning a college degree through guided independent study is a siginiccant personal as well as academic achievement. It takes a high degree of intelligence, self motivation, discpline, and perseverance to accomplish this task.
I do stand behind the quality of education which lead to a Kennedy Western degree. At Kennedy Western every student must do coursework, take examinations, and present a Final Paper, a Thesis, or a Dissertation. Every graduating student has some form of Research Paper they must present as their capstone project. These papers differ in complexity and learning depending on the degree program and the student's major.
Some say that the Dissertation, the Thesis, and the Research Papers written are not at the level of accredited universities (substandard work) especially the PhD level. As far the Thesis or the Dissertation content or complexity, I can only judge by the complexity of my Final Paper for my EE. I toiled for six months writing a 150 page document on Thermal Management of Power Electronic Systems. In terms of time that equals ½ of a year.
On the issue of coursework at Kennedy Western University, I will say all the textbooks I used were the latest editions and similar or the same as textbooks used by accredited colleges and universities. The courses at Kennedy Western were not sectioned into lessons, but the university has means in place to guide the student through the coursework. The main means used at Kennedy Western is "The Blackboard Inc. System for e-learning through Virtual Learning Environment and is a system of delivery used world wide by online universities, one other being WGU.
In addition to the Blackboard System, Kennedy Western students can interact with the Faculty either by phone or email. I say this because I have experienced this first hand. Students also interact by way of the internet through Kennedy Western's Virtual Student Union.
At Kennedy Western, I may not have been in a classroom with the Professor lecturing , or giving me directions on how to read the book, and every week giving me answers on a white board. I had the white board, the magic marker, the pen and paper. I toiled for 18 months on my ten courses that included: Calculus, Science, Linear Circuits, Electronic Circuits, Power Electronics, Signals and Systems, Computer Principles for Engineers, Digital Logic, Microprocessors and finally Ethics. Yes I said 10 courses.
Some Kennedy Students say they work on their courses for many hours, and some will say, just as we said, many hours not years. Well to clarify, my many hours can be explained with the following summation. I spent the many hours thus: (18 months X 4 weeks per months @ 40 hours per week = 2880 hours. Plus the (6 months) 960 hours on the final paper (2880+960 = 3840 hours). Thus, 6 months + 18 months = 2 years. So to those that say “many hours is not good enough”, I say they equate to two years of hard study. As you can see my months were multiplied by 40 hours a week (yes I had the time to devote to my studies). So, my two years of hard study at Kennedy-Western earned me 40 credits hours + 21 experience credit hours. Now since I entered Kennedy-Western as a Standing Junior with Associate of Science degrees from an accredited institution (Penn Foster College) with 67 + 66 accumulated credits hours, I say that I qualify for the Bachelor of Science Degree in Electrical Engineering regardless of what some will say. Also, the 21 credits awarded for experience certainly does not add up 50%.
As for the “Experience Credits”, I do have the “many hours--many years” of experience of which I had to show proof. I worked in the electrical-electronics-engineering field as an Electrician and Industrial Electronics Technician and Electrical Engineer at General Motors Corporation for 40 years. I completed 8000 hours of OJT (for the Critics that equates to four years) and Academic Studies, through an apprenticeship, for Electrician Journeyman status. I have graduated from National Radio Institute’s courses in Complete Communications theory and Radio and Television Repair. Both of those courses were two years each of academic work. Later I completed a two-year Academic Electrician Course from International Correspondence Schools and became Master Electrican. I have attended Kent State University taking courses in Electrical Engineering. I hold an Electrical Engineer’s Certificate from General Motors Institute (GMI now Kettering University). And I will add all that took years to complete. I was tested and earned an Extra Class Amateur Radio Operator’s License and the Radiotelephone License(GROL), both were issued by The Federal Communications Commission and I have held those for 39 years. These facts do qualify me for the experience credits allocated to me by Kennedy-Western University.
To comment on the question of open book examinations, as I said, I entered Kennedy-Western as a Standing Junior because I because of my Associate of Science Degree Majoring in Electronics Technology, and an Associate of Science Majoring in Electrical Engineering. Both are from a CHEA recognized DETC accredited institution (of which I had to show proof). That college was a Distance Learning Institution, and I may add, that institution does not have a “Campus” either. Although the course work there at Penn Foster was broken into lessons with examinations, all of the examinations were open book and online without supervision. Even the semester finals were open book, but supervised by Proctor. I would like to add, Kennedy Western examinations are taken in the same manner as exams given by Penn Foster College, they are also by a Proctor or online.
As far as involvement with a faculty member at Kennedy-Western, with every course and throughout my final research paper, I was assigned a faculty member with whom I conversed on a weekly basis. Some may dispute these claims, but I say this is fact.
I do not agree that Kennedy-Western is a substandard institution and if someone thinks I am using rationalization, so be it. If there are those who think I’m a “Mill Apologist” so be it. What I have written here on this page is the truth about my life experience( 71 years), my educational background, and my experiences at Kennedy Western University.

Bill BSEE KWU, ASTET, Penn Foster, ASET Penn Foster

 

For another perspective on the quality of Kennedy-Western's engineering programs, read the Senate testimony of Lt. Commander Claudia Gelzer, U.S. Coast Guard. She enrolled in a KW Master's degree program in Environmental Engineering.

The full statement is worth reading, but here are a few quotes of interest:

"Kennedy-Western was prepared to waive six master's level classes in engineering based solely on my claims of professional training...This information was accepted at face value by Kennedy-Western. They asked for no proof or documentation. As a note, I have no formal engineering training."

"The course guidelines arrived by email, and contained no actual syllabus. Instead, the guidelines included three basic instructions: read your textbook cover-to-cover at least twice; take the enclosed sample exam; and take the final exam. No papers, homework assignments, on-line discussions, or interaction with the professor was required."

"Instead of structured interaction between professors and fellow students in a classroom - including homework, papers and a series of exams - Kennedy-Western requires students to pass one open-book, multiple-choice test for each class. A student may retake this exam if they do not pass the first time."

"As for my first-hand experience with Kennedy-Western courses and passing the tests, I found that basic familiarity with the textbook was all I needed. I was able to find exam answers without having read a single chapter of the text. "

"With just 16 hours of study, I had completed 40 percent of the course requirements for a master's degree."

"As for what I learned, the answer is very little. The coursework provided only a cursory insight into management of hazardous waste or environmental regulations and law. Certainly not at the level one would expect from an environmental engineer."

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The root cause is no surprise...

Bill,
Please do not turn this forum into a William Valey. Whatever accreditation that KWU gets, prisoner can become a hero of a nation and only time can prove everything.
Nothing is impossible.
Have a nice day.

 

Thank you for sharing your KWU experience. Other KWU stories have been shared that indicate that the quality of education at KWU is very spotty. The common requirement for any degree at KWU appears to be 4 to 6 classes and the final paper. There have been examples where KWU's own policies are ignored by KWU, e.g., people admitted to advanced degree programs without ever completing lower degree programs, people admitted to programs without the the required years of experience.

The senate hearings indicated that the admissions committee at KWU is a total farce. That the admissions counselors were nothing but telemarketers. That no one had ever been "denied" admissions to KWU. How can an institution with these attributes not be a diploma mill?

 

CCU was called a diploma mill in the press simply because it was unaccredited. IIRC, it was called a diploma mill here only once by one person.

KWU is substandard based on their own published policies but more importantly, KWU is a diploma mill based on what they won't publish about thier programs. These kind of issues were not a problem with CCU. Comparing KWU to CCU is a huge insult to CCU, IMHO. If KWU becomes accredited I'll be surprised, pleased, and will have faith in the quality of KWU's programs.

 

Bill Huffman wrote:

"Thank you for sharing your KWU experience. Other KWU stories have been shared that indicate that the quality of education at KWU is very spotty. The common requirement for any degree at KWU appears to be 4 to 6 classes and the final paper. There have been examples where KWU's own policies are ignored by KWU, e.g., people admitted to advanced degree programs without ever completing lower degree programs, people admitted to programs without the the required years of experience.

The senate hearings indicated that the admissions committee at KWU is a total farce. That the admissions counselors were nothing but telemarketers. That no one had ever been "denied" admissions to KWU. How can an institution with these attributes not be a diploma mill?"

Bill,
I cannot judge my experience with KW on what others may say in regards to the school. I have given my own experience. Maybe the admissions committe is a farsce. I do not know that. In my case, I was asked up front to submit a portfolio with my transcripts and documented proof of experience before I was enrolled in the program.
Did they verify my experience? I do not know that they did.
Did they verify my college transcripts? Yes they did.
It could be that I was one of many who was handled by an Admission Councelor who followed the correct procedure set forth by the school adminstration.
As far as being pressured into enrolling at KW, that didn't happen in my case. I was not called from a name on a list. I initiated the first contact for information about the school. It was several months before I called again requesting enrollment. The school never called back during that time frame.
Yes, I have heard all the stories about the 4 to 6 classes without another degree. I have no proof of that except from those people who say it is true. You could be right when you say "no one denied."
Like I wrote in my post, what transpired between me and KWU is the truth.
I can only tell it like is is.
Would I do it again? The answer to that question is no.
But, in the sense that I learned while at KWU, I did. Was it equivalent to a B&M accredited university. I have no gauge to compare it by, since I've never graduated from a B&M university.
Was the experience as good as my Associate degree classes at Penn Foster. Yes, there were many similarities in the coursework delivery and student services.
I will not go on record as saying that KWU is a diploma mill.
That is my opinion!
Bill947

 

But unfortunately, even a Penn Foster degree -- although it has legitimate DETC accreditation -- would not meet the standards of most B&M engineering programs, which have much more rigorous ABET accreditation.

For example, your previous post indicates that KW granted you junior-level status in engineering, and that you then took a Calculus class. At an ABET engineering school, calculus is a basic prerequisite that you are expected to address in high school or in your first semester of college. It is not an upper-level class.

In practice, the reality is that most engineers would not accept a KW engineering degree as equivalent to a conventional ABET degree. For example, a KW Bachelor's degree will not be considered ABET-equivalent by B&M graduate programs, by professional societies, or by state engineering boards. In fact, even the Wyoming engineering board, in KW's home state, won't accept KW degrees for professional engineering licensure.

I'm sure that you did learn something from KW, so I will agree not to call it a "diploma mill". However, I do not believe that a KW degree represents the same level of academic rigor as a conventional ABET engineering degree, and that it is therefore a misleading qualification.

If KW were to issue "certificates of completion", rather than "degrees", then I wouldn't have a problem.

 

CalDog, thanks for your reply.

On your points:

CalDog: But unfortunately, even a Penn Foster degree -- although it has legitimate DETC accreditation -- would not meet the standards of most B&M engineering programs, which have much more rigorous ABET accreditation.

Bill947: Yes, agreed, the Penn Foster’s degrees would not meet the standards of an ABET accredited B&M program, even though the courses do have lab components.

CalDog: For example, your previous post indicates that KW granted you junior-level status in engineering, and that you then took a Calculus class. At an ABET engineering school calculus is a basic prerequisite that you are expected to address in high school or in your first semester of college. It is not an upper-level class.

Bill947: Agreed, the Calculus is a prerequisite that should be addressed in high school or first semester of college. In fact, it was a first semester course at Penn Foster. At KW, I took the course as an addition for refresher purposes. It was not required.


CalDog: In practice, the reality is that most engineers would not accept a KW engineering degree as equivalent to a conventional ABET degree. For example, a KW Bachelor's degree will not be considered ABET-equivalent by B&M graduate programs, by professional societies, or by state engineering boards. In fact, even the Wyoming engineering board, in KW's home state, won't accept KW degrees for professional engineering licensure.

Bill947: I do not believe that I referred anywhere in my post that I believed the KW engineering degree was equivalent to a conventional ABET degree. In addition, I am aware of the fact that a KW engineering degree is not recognized by state engineering boards and professional societies. I must concede that point. But there are cases where the degree has utility as in private sector manufacturing.

CalDog: I'm sure that you did learn something from KW, so I will agree not to call it a "diploma mill". However, I do not believe that a KW degree represents the same level of academic rigor as a conventional ABET engineering degree, and that it is therefore a misleading qualification.

Bill947: On this point we do not agree. I do not see it as a misleading qualification.
Also, I thank you for conceding the point that I did do course work and learned something while at KWU. Furthermore it is nice of you for not referring to KW as a “diploma mill.”

CalDog: If KW were to issue "certificates of completion", rather than "degrees", then I wouldn't have a problem.

Bill947: You are entitled to your opinion.
Finally, although we may disagree on some points of issue, I must say thanks for your civil response to my post.

Bill

 

Thanks for your contributions to this thread, Bill. It was interesting to read positive things about KWU, because we generally hear only about the inconsistencies in their programs.

It is unfortunate that an earnest student with your obvious vocational background in the subject is put in the uncomfortable position of defending a school.

DL experts can't know about your experience with the school but they can pull together facts from various sources to know whether to recommend a school or not.

I don't mean this to sound condescending, but I advise you to separate criticism about school from criticism about your experience with the school. You know what you completed was valuable.

Did you find the Penn Foster degrees to be cost-effective? Looks like they have some interesting associates-level programs.

Best wishes,

Dave

 

Do you think Kennedy Western is dead? After all, Earl "Warren" headed the commission that investigated the death of President "Kennedy."

 

I don't know but the next deceased public official when alternating between chief justice and president is Nixon.

Therefore, the university names on deck are:

Nixon Intercontinental University
Rehnquist Global University
Reagan Interplanetary University

And possible someday (no disrespect intended):

Roberts Interstellar University
Ford / Carter / Clinton / Bush / Bush Galactic University


Dave

 

Thanks to you as well. And if I may, I would elaborate a bit on my contention that KW degrees are "misleading."

I don't necessarily object to schools that offer non-standard, or even substandard, courses of instruction in engineering. In fact, some of the best schools in the country offer non-standard engineering programs. But there is a right way and a wrong way to go about it.

Consider, for example, the engineering degree programs at Harvard, which is obviously one of the most highly regarded schools in the country. Harvard offers bachelor's degrees in engineering, but interestingly, their engineering degrees are available in two "flavors":

1. As an engineering-focused, ABET-accredited bachelor's degree, and
2. As a less focused, non-ABET bachelor's degree.

The non-ABET engineering degrees offered by Harvard are non-standard, and they share certain characteristics with KW engineering degrees. They would, for example, be unacceptable for engineering licensure in many states.

But there is a very important difference. Harvard clearly distinguishes their non-standard engineering degrees, by giving them a non-standard designation: they are "Bachelor of Arts" degrees. Only the ABET degrees get the customary "Bachelor of Science" title. Any knowledgeable third party (e.g. engineering employer, graduate school, professional society, or state board) that sees a "BA" degree in engineering will immediately recognize it as non-standard. So no one is concerned about it. I believe that other reputable schools (e.g. Dartmouth) have similar systems.

KW, in contrast, does nothing to distinguish its non-standard engineering degrees; on the contrary, their degrees have the exact same "Bachelor of Science" designation as an ABET degree. Many third parties regard this as "false advertising", and are therefore inclined to question KW's institutional ethics. And they have a point. If a KW degree is not equivalent to an ABET degree (as you have acknowledged), then why does it deserve the same title?