Kennedy Western University - How would you evaluate?

Um, I think you missed a crucial part of my post.

That employee would be MUCH better off to not mention the bogus degree and simply list his/her experience and background. If there's a legit degree, that will definitely add points in their favor, but a fake degree is a guaranteed zero.

If you didn't catch what I'm saying there, it's that someone with no degree at all would have their resume read and their application reviewed -- I've met and hired a lot of excellent people with no degrees -- but someone with a less-than-wonderful or bogus degree would be immediately eliminated.

To further clarify, I'm not disputing that someone with a fraudulent degree might, in fact, have the experience and perhaps the training to hold the position. But because honesty and personal integrity is a qualification for any position for which I'm hiring, the person with a degree from a less-than-wonderful school will lack that crucial element (as evidenced by their willingness to deceive me about their education) and will therefore be disqualified from further consideration.

It bears repeating for those too dense to get it from sublety:

I don't discriminate for lack of an RA degree. I do discriminate for lack of honesty and personal integrity. If you don't have a degree and tell me that, I'll happily consider it. If you have a fake degree and try to pass it off as legitimate, I definitely won't hire you.

Now... as for the state-approved schools, it would depend entirely on which school.

A candidate with a degree from Cal Coast, I'd consider interviewing if the rest of the resume was strong. However, I would probably not consider a candidate with a "state approved" degree from another state (WY, NM, HI, etc)

Of course, the mill apologists won't like that, but increasingly, that's what hiring managers and credential checking services are saying... RA or DETC accredited qualify, state-approved does not. You can bitch and whine all you want, but there's a reason behind the process, and it pretty much speaks for itself.

No further apologies for K-W will serve any additional purpose, I think all the arguments on both sides have been stated, and we're running the risk of just continuing to argue over the same points over and over.

Oh, and just to clarify: while my opinions and those of Degreeinfo.com, LLC may be similar in most cases, they shouldn't be construed as being the same. Unless otherwise stated, any posts I make are speaking with my position, not DegreeInfo's.

 

Gus:

My best friend and Sifo has a studio here in Spartanburg, SC only about an hour from Charlotte. Any time you want to spar I will gladly gladly gladly meet you there, or come to your place within reason.

I Come To You With Only Karate, Empty Hands,
I Have No Weapons, but Should I be Forced
to Defend Myself, My Principles or My Honor,
Should it be a Matter of Life or Death, of Right or Wrong,
Then Here Are My Weapons,
Karate, My Empty Hands

The above was not a threat, but a comment. If you had martial arts training then you would not go around calling people names and offending people for no other reason than the fact that they disagree with you. The first thing we teach in martial arts is respect, and humility. You have NEITHER! We teach walk away until the line is crossed where you have to defend yourself or your honor. If you want a lesson come on down you can be the next contestant on get your attitude right.

 

Gus has been around here a really long time, has demonstrated his knowledge and abilities, and (IMHO) has never come across as arrogant or even disrespectful.

He, like I and a number of others, doesn't have a lot of patience for degree mill apologists who (as a group, not necessarily all individuals within it) tend to use flawed logic, misdirection, and unsupported statements to justify their positions. So for those who do those sort of things, he, I, and a number of others are likely to come across as, um, less than charming.

However, as a matter of course, we don't permit personal attacks, and your comment above (in my opinion, anyway) falls into that category.

In any case, it should have been directed via private email and not on a public discussion board.

Please take further comments on this to private email.

 

Well the administrator wants to step in when someone on his side gets it back at them, but when the rude attack dogs are out he is silent. Real professional here. Dish it but can't take it? You guys are the judges of logic?

You show me where I have used misdirection, or unsupported statements. I have been honest about every post. Honest about my situation, honest about my thoughts on education, and honest about how I feel about accreditation. You may disagree with my logic and that is fine. There has been a few here that have and made good points without getting personal. Many of you do not have the patience to do so. I guess a few more liberal arts courses, and you will finally have the people skills to do so.

Chip, did you not read the post above by your precious Gus. I did take it in the PM, but he brought it back out here. Gus has been here for a long time? Maybe that is what happens. It must be in the water. I hope I don't catch it though.

 

Perhaps Chip, and other RA protagonists, could tell us who these degree-mill apologists are? I haven't seen any so far.
Dennis, my office is full of North American Indian pictures - as well as ducks!

 

Scott - Regarding your post:

I have no problem with people learning in different ways. RA certainly isn't the only way to learn. Indeed, one can go to a public library and become well educated in many fields by simply reading good literature. This route doesn't cost anything but your time. Such self study may make you more employable - or it may provide enjoyment. I suppose one could take courses through a less than wonderful school - such as K-W - and learn from it. If your only goal is to expand your mind - go for it any way you want to go.

Where "RA or No Way" comes in to play is when a person goes to use a degree. Degrees from less than wonderful schools are useless for:

1. Gaining admission to an RA graduate program.
2. Seeking licensure (such as a PE or CPA).
3. Building a resume in states such as Oregon (and possibly NJ or ND) that care about such matters.
4. Building a resume for employment with a firm that is diligent enough to know the difference.

Regards - Andy

 

What you're saying lacks reality. The RA regulars always use insults, rudness & misquotes as their preferred method of debate. The more dumping on someone the better, RIGHT ? Gus is one of the worst, disrespectful, rude, arrogant. You don't see it because you don't want to. You don't like it when the tables are turned. If debate was confined to the subject these wars would be held to a minimum. It's possible to say that K-W is a bad school without insulting anyone. Approved schools operate above the level of Hamilton and Trinity, some barely above and others much above. They are not degree mills and I've never apologized for Hamilton or Trinity, the true degree mills. I debate I don't beg or apologize to any of you for my beliefs. I STAND BY THEM!!!

 

There are people working all across this country using unaccredited degrees. These exist by the millions. They teach school, private schools- religous schools- home school. They work in business, sometimes employers know and sometimes they don't, and sometimes the employer doesn't care or accepts them. A business operates for profit and can't afford to ignore a good employee for narrow views. There are thousands of people in Oregon that have used California approved schools, and will continue to use the diplomas they have earned, and Oregon hasn't arrested or fined anyone. SCUPS is legal there, state approved. Yes, in your dream world approved degrees are ignored, but outside this little degreeinfo kingdom people go about their lives just fine, using their high school diplomas, their approved degrees and other methods of education to gain employment to teach and to live good lives, and not by your leave and without your permission.

 

Hi Andy,

I agree with most of that, but:

1) Not everyone wants to continue on to an RA school graduate program.

2) Not everyone is seeking licensure. (As far as the PE, you have to have an ABET degree with 4 years under a PE to sit for this exam. Unless I go to work for someone else I will never have this anyway. With 8 years experience under a PE without a ABET degree you could sit for the exam.)

3) I do not plan to move to Oregon, but if I did I would not be afraid to put it on my resume because I do not think the law would stand. I would and could afford an attorney to fight it. This Oregon law also list CCU, and Century who seem to be going for DETC. Are they going to change their list?

4) Maybe the large companies have these policies, but I think from my experience smaller companies like mine care more about the skill level than where you graduated from.

I am just saying that not everyone thinks like the people here. KW sends a news letter every month where at least 20 people graduate, and sometimes more. These people are working somewhere, so either thousands of companies believe otherwise, or they are all incompetant.

Regards,

Scott

 

Kf5k

You seem to be repeating a lot of untrue information.

Do people with unaccredited degrees exist? Sure. Are they using them for jobs that require legitimate degrees? For the most part no.

If what you are really saying is that once in while an inproper degree slips through, I am sure you are correct. That is called a "time bomb". At some point that person is going to get a rude awakening.

What I find interesting is that often the person with the unaccredited/degree mill degree could have gotten a legitimate one if they had better information and had put out a little more effort.

 

Scott

You are missing a lot of what is being said.

If you are talking ONLY about education then go with any program that meets your needs.

If you are pursuing a degree for employment then schools like K-W are a complete waste. They tarnish the reputation of those who actually list them.

In general if companies are aware of K-W status, being illegal in several states, moving from state to state to escape enforcement, and their fraudulent activites they are in no way accept and are likely to cause a person to be fired.

Most people have no idea what they will be doing in 5 years. Accepting a substandard/degree mill degree is saying you DO know your future. It just "ain't" possible.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

Approved degrees are legitimate, and are being used all the time. They do not slip by, but are used as tools. Every degree issued by a California approved school is legal and very usable. You need to check out the private schools if you believe that RA degrees are required to teach. Businesses all across this country pay for and accept approved degrees, because they are legal. This idea that only a tiny part of the American economy allows approved degrees exists only in your very narrow, biased, view. There are millions of unaccredited degrees out there, and they are being used, just as many home schooled children are out there competing with students from the best accredited High Schools. They compete and often win, because they have skills, knowledge, and the ability to produce. A degree mill is in no way the same as state approved schools, and thank goodness most American's have the common sense to know it.

 

Very well stated James. I have trouble disagreeing with 90% of what you wrote. The only incorrect point is that you are assuming all state approved schools are equal.

In reality some are on the border of accreditation (CCU) while others are in reality degree mills. Remember that several states offer no over sight what so ever.

Columbia State and LaSalle were both state approved before being shut down by the FBI.

Also as has been pointed out, what most people think of as Universities are about 99.999% RA. For the average Joe legitimate=RA.

Again, well stated perhaps the best post I have ever seen concerning state approved utility.

 

Dave,

What about DETC schools? I ask because I am attending one.

I am established in my career, but I am going back to further my education. This is more for me and personal enjoyment.

If I was starting out I would go RA.

Just curious. Thanks.

Mike

 

Perhaps I can get it a bit closer than 90%. I agree that state approved schools range from a little above a degree mill to well above a mill. Is this better Dave?

 

Well, I'm not Dave, but I happen to like several of the DETC schools. In particular, Aspen University, The Catholic Distance University, and American Military University (even with its purposefully misleading APUS silliness) are all quite good. I would stack them up against quite a few RA schools.

Also, lest we forget, The University of South Africa is a DETC school (yes, I know it was a marketing ploy, but still...).




Tom Nixon

 

As has been pointed out before, some so-called state approved schools have been proven to be fraudulent degree mills in a court of law. I hope you're not arguing that the courts were wrong in those cases? I also would like to point out that some of these degree mills did require some academic effort.

Also, a slight correction to your previous post that so-called state approved schools are legitimate. This is apparently not true in North Dakota, Oregon, and New Jersey. It could be illegal in other states in the future. This does look like a growing trend.

 

DETC Learning

Thank you for your reply Tom. I appreciate the info.

Even though I'm only in a DETC school, I am excitied about it.

It works the best for the schedule right now. I was a little concerned at first that it wasn't RA. For where I am in life, it should be o.k.

Thanks again, the information here is priceless.

 

Re: DETC Learning

I think DETC accreditation is good, and since I'm working with a DETC school also I'm completely unbiased.