Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Emrah, May 15, 2010.

  1. agent445

    agent445 New Member

    There's nothing about a J.D. that makes a person less entitled to the doctor title than other professional doctorates. And unlike medical school graduates, many law school graduates are actually fairly prepared to start practicing after graduation. The only difference is that there isn't a history of using the title in this profession. It is a doctoral degree, and the doctorate is even designated as "Doctor of Jurisprudence" or more commonly "Juris Doctor". Is the person a doctor? Yes. Does that mean it's customarily a good idea to use the title? No. Most would probably consider it tacky. Could this change in the future? Yes, and it probably will. Some college like Yale or Harvard will probably encourage its professors to start calling themselves "doctor", and it will go from there.
  2. agent445

    agent445 New Member

    Gee, I wonder.
  3. dcb1888

    dcb1888 New Member

    I finished law school thirty years ago, have never heard of any lawyer referring to himself or herself as "doctor". Never. Not on letterhead, not in court, not in social circles. ....it is a good question though, if an MD is doctor, and a PhD is doctor, why not a JD? No idea why not, just that I myself have never seen it used before.
  4. ITJD

    ITJD Active Member

    I realize that your original post brought itself back to the realm of normalcy with its closing paragraph/statement but the above is clearly delusional and self-serving at least in the case of the ABA.

    No degree that is post-graduate that has less than 5 years of combined work, a dissertation or significant post graduate work in lieu of that dissertation should allow a recipient to be called doctor nor is it equivalent. A board certification to practice medicine is far, far more rigorous than doing the year of article work and the bar exam, as is medical school or a dissertation defense.

    Don't get me wrong, I may be going to law school myself in the next year or so, and I respect the profession but its status in modern academia is due more to politics than rigor.
  5. berock

    berock New Member

    At my local university there is a lawyer teaching criminal justice classes. I never had him but heard other students calling him Dr. I'm uncertain if he requests to be called Dr. or since he does have a terminal degree, students call him Dr. out of respect.
  6. agent445

    agent445 New Member

    Don't tell me I'm delusional and self-serving. I don't use the title, and nor do I ever intend to. Tell that to the ABA and the law professor who authored the article, "Lawyers are doctors, too". Technically they are, they just don't use the title because it's not customary.

    I'm not interested in your silly remarks about medical school being "far more rigorous" than law school and so they're more deserving of the title. If one has a valid doctorate, they are a doctor, plain and simple. Whether or not it's customary for persons with a particular doctorate to use the title is another matter.
  7. ITJD

    ITJD Active Member

    I just did. What are you going to do about it? Pound sand. That's what.

    Then don't read them. Simple really. I don't rightly care what a law professor wrote about a title he obviously covets either. I'm just as bad for replying.
  8. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    Then the question is whether a JD is valid doctorate. And that's open to question, even at some of the schools that grant this degree.

    For example, RMIT -- an Australian university that grants JDs -- states explicitly:

    An American PhD or MD who visits Australia (or Britain, Ireland, Hong Kong, etc) would be accepted as a "doctor" without a second thought.

    But is this also true for the American JD ? No. The reality is that in most countries, a first-professional degree in law is not regarded as a doctoral-level achievement.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 18, 2010
  9. StevenKing

    StevenKing Member

    I'll go with Matt...with two master's degrees, I want to be referred to as "Master, Master King." LOL.

  10. mattbrent

    mattbrent Well-Known Member

    That's what I'm talking about! :D

    Imagine a world where everyone was identified by a title based on their education. We'd have people like

    Dr. Thomas
    Specialist Anderson
    Master Brent
    Bachelor Kelly
    Associate Todd
    Diploma Hall

    and my personal favorite

    High School Drop Out Smith

  11. agent445

    agent445 New Member

    In Australia, they adopted the JD with the caveat that they were adopting the terminology only for standardization, and not the transformation to a doctorate. So, because it's not a doctorate there, one can't use the title there.

    In the U.S., the whole point of switching from LLB to JD was to transform the degree itself into a doctorate, it wasn't just to change the words. That's why the doctor title applies. Only a single jurisdiction within the U.S. has ever questioned whether the JD in America was a doctorate or not. And that was back in '70's, and probably doesn't apply today even in that jurisdiction. All other jurisdictions in the U.S. recognize the degree as a doctorate. The reasons a small number of them gave decades ago for advising not to use the title did not dispute that attorneys were entitled to the title. It disputed the utility and use of the title, arguing that it can cause confusion given the lack of customary use, and can contribute to "self laudation" under rules of professional ethics.

    In other words, if someone signs his name as "John Smith, Esq.", what does it add for him to start signing as "Dr. John Smith, Esq."

    It adds nothing, because the "Dr. " title is nonspecific and may mislead others who read it. I am not in favor of the adopted use of this title for attorneys except for addressing professors in law school. And it's not just the "ABA" saying that. State bar associations allow it. For example in my jurisdiction of Michigan:

  12. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator

    One of my favories is from the Richard Pryor movie The Toy. The little kids name is Bates and he has to call the kid "Master Bates"
  13. gmohdez

    gmohdez New Member

    I have not posted for a while, but have read the board on and off, I am a year behind, but will finish my master's this summer, which officially means my highest degree is a bachelor's. I really am nowhere near a lawyer when it comes to understanding if a title will get me in trouble, legally, however, regardless of the law, if I call myself a bachelor I will definitely be in trouble with my wife, so I will have to wait until this summer to call myself a master.
  14. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    There have been a number of Degreeinfo forums on this same topic. In academia, it is most common for those who hold the J.D. to have that degree recognized as a terminal degree (as the Ph.D.) and paid at the doctoral level. Interestingly law professors with a J.D. almost never refer to themselves as "doctor", while those with a J.D. who teach outside of the school of law are commonly referred to as "doctor".
  15. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    Yes, it was. There is no big academic difference between LLB and JD programs. The change was to the words on the diploma.

    Want proof? Look at Indiana University's (highly rated) law school. Today, Indiana U grants both the LLB and JD degrees. So what's the difference?
    The switchover from LLB to JD degree happened (as noted previously in this thread) because the bachelor's degree became a common (but not universal) prerequisite for admissions at US law schools. So law students felt that they should be awarded a graduate degree, instead of a second bachelor's. The IU policy is obviously tailored accordingly.

    But there is zero difference in academic requirements between the LLB and JD programs at IU -- despite the fact that one is a "bachelor's" degree and one is a "doctorate".
    Last edited by a moderator: May 19, 2010
  16. mattbrent

    mattbrent Well-Known Member

    That reminds me of some of the EdS programs I've looked at. They are virtually identical to the masters program. The coursework is the same. The only difference is that if you already have a masters and do the program, you get an EdS at the end rather than a second masters.

  17. b4cz28

    b4cz28 New Member

    Sorry for interrupting the dispute here, but what is an EdS?
  18. nycrican2

    nycrican2 New Member

    At the two year community college where I teach, all professors with a JD have the title of Doctor next to their names in the college catalog and in the internal college faculty Outlook directory.
  19. mattbrent

    mattbrent Well-Known Member

    An EdS is an Education Specialist degree.

  20. agent445

    agent445 New Member

    You're overlooking the fact that aside from the ABA, all states in the U.S. except one, accept that the JD is a doctoral degree and not a bachelor's degree. Instead, you and another person are inventing colorful, complex arguments to support your preconceptions. If there's anything I've learned posting to message boards, it's that no one's ever wrong about anything and no one ever admits to being wrong.

    The other several states that had problems with attorneys using the title did not dispute that they were entitled to it, but rather disputed the utility and the fact that it could cause confusion because of the title is non-specific, and in most cases would just amount to quote "self laudation."

    For instance, in my state:


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