Is cost enough to justify an unaccredited program?

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by nosborne48, Oct 19, 2005.

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  1. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    On another thread, one poster took pains to point out to me that the reason a student might go with unaccredited SCUPS instead of its regionally accredited sister NCA is the difference in cost.

    That got me to wondering. I took a look:

    NCU gets $375/s.h undergrad versus $120 for SCUPS
    NCU gets $475/s.h. graduate versus $210 for SCUPS

    SCUPS' law tuition totals $13,440 which works out to about $160/s.h. but NCU has no law school. SCUPS is very cheap, anyway.

    Now, it seems to ME that at the undergraduate level, a fuly accredited (meaning R/A and any applicable professional accreditation such as ABET) is worth almost whatever it costs.

    But at the graduate level, I'm not so sure. Isn't the biggest investment in one's graduate or professional degree the TIME and EFFORT rather than tuition? But on the other hand, the NCU degree will cost more than twice as much as the SCUPS degree and MAY not do much more for the holder?

    Musings, anyone?
     
  2. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    In addition to what you pose, I have also thought about this question with regard to Northwestern California University School of Law (NWCULAW) vs. William Howard Taft University Law School. Both are CalBar registered and the JD from either will qualify its holder to sit for the California bar exam. They're both registered with the California BPPVE. NWCULAW is not-insignificantly less expensive than Taft (though that may change in the not-too-distant future). But Taft is, additionally, DETC-accredited; and DETC, of course, is an accreditor approved by the US Department of Education (USDE) and its Council for Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA).

    Going to Taft automatically ensures that the JD will be "accredited" and, therefore, always acceptable even in states like Oregon. But going to NWCULAW is cheaper. Plus, and this is just an opinion, NWCULAW may be (and I stress the word "may" because I'm not completely sure that this is true, but NWCULAW may be) a better school than Taft.

    It begs the questions: Is Taft's DETC accreditation enough to warrant paying more? Is it enough to warrant maybe (and I stress the word "maybe") attend a school that's not quite as good? (It's good, mind you... but maybe not quite as good as NWCULAW... or so it is my opinion. I could be wrong.)
     
  3. miguelstefan

    miguelstefan New Member

    I concur with your opinion 100%. As part of my research on the subject I found at least two unacredited DL Law Schools that are clearly superior than their DETC counterparts. Oakbrook College of Law and Goverment Policy being the other one.
     
  4. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    If a program doesn't offer what I want or need, then I don't care what it costs. So while price might end up being the factor that determines whether I enroll or not, it's only gonna be relevant if I want to enroll in the first place.

    If the choice is between two programs that are equally attractive intellectually, except that one is unaccredited and inexpensive while the other is accredited but expensive... that depends, I guess.

    If my reason for enrolling is to acquire a broadly accepted vocational qualification, then the additional utility associated with accreditation might be worth the additional cost.

    But if my reason for enrolling is to pursue a personal interest with little occasion for anyone else to ever recognize any degrees, then I guess that the less expensive unaccredited program might be very competitive. (Again, that's assuming that its content was attractive.)

    In fact, most of the DL options that interest me right now are both unaccredited and inexpensive. (Though most of them don't offer degrees.)
     
  5. Jack Tracey

    Jack Tracey New Member

    Nosborne - I have a question. As you asking if cost is enough to justify an unaccredited program in general? Or are you only interested in comparing SCUPS to NCU? If the former then I would point out that GAAP programs are available in South Africa at a fraction of the cost of even the inexpensive unaccredited programs. This is one of the reasons I have difficulty understanding why people go for unaccredited degrees (except in cases where the subject matter is unique).
    Jack
     
  6. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Jack,

    Well, a little of BOTH, I guess. Being in the midst of a foreign program in my subject, I have to say that for an American, any American law program will have at least ONE BIG advantage over any foreign law program just because it IS American. Lots of things in law are universal but lots and lots of things are NOT.

    Bill,

    That's pretty much how it came down for me, too. It would depend on what I wanted the degree FOR.

    I don't know if the "gentleman scholar" exists who can successfully complete a legitimate doctorate SOLELY for personal reward. Maybe he does; certainly there are many who consider it or even begin, but how many actually FINISH?

    There's possibly another consideration here. What is it about the accredited program that makes it more expensive? Is the additional cost necessary to maintian standards or is it just that the accredited school can charge more BECAUSE it is accredited?

    I think that the expense of a doctorate isn't the real barrier. NCU isn't exactly cheap but it isn't expensive either as private schools go. I suspect that the real "advantage" that most unaccredited programs offer may be that they are in some ways easier to get into and easier to complete. That's just speculation, though.
     
  7. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    I agree that Oakbrook's good. Just beware of its religious right leanings... er... I mean... unless that's precisely what you're looking for.
     
  8. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator

    I would say that I looked at unaccredited schools (CCU at the time) and I would not do it again regardless of the cost savings. In my case, I went back to earn an RA degree. Where is the savings? A degree that is "bullet proof" is worth its weight in gold.

    I did not fully understand the accreditation issues when I signed up for CCU's BS/MBA program. I am thinking about a DETC school and I am unsure because it is not RA. A DETC school, or other natonally accreditied school, is the only thing I would consider when compared to RA UNLESS it is in a subject that is hard to find.
     
  9. Oaskie

    Oaskie New Member

    Interesting topic

    I looked at law schools last week and found all kinds of reasons that ABA accredited programs cost more. The size of a school's physical law library, the size and condition of other facilities (buildings, I think), and other seemingly arbitrary information is used to refuse accreditation to otherwise decent law schools. Examples include a current ABA candidate here in Atlanta, John Marshall Law School and also the Massachusetts School of Law (which attempted a lawsuit against the ABA and lost). Granted, JMLS isn't considered a "great" program in Georgia and has been the lowest ranked in the state, but its age, faculty and reputation for producing competent lawyers should count for more or graduates of these unaccredited programs should have alternative ways of legally practicing, IMO. Oh and the ABA's rules create a horrible catch22 for schools that fail to get accreditation based on it's student's LSAT/GPA, because the schools will likely attract a worse student body as long as they remain unaccredited.

    And of course, they won't accredit a program that includes distance education....a dead give away of ulterior motives IMO, because at least *some* parts of a great legal education could likely be delivered at a distance given the ability of so many other disciplines to manage DL...maybe there are some ABA schools that include some DL options, but I don't know of any.

    http://www.eagletribune.com/news/stories/20050102/LI_002.htm

    "The school was denied accreditation because the association determined its library was inadequate, there were too few teachers for the number of students, the teachers weren't paid enough and the school was not affiliated with a university."

    Teacher Pay? That sticks out like a sore thumb....Why is the ABA working to keep teacher pay up at law schools
    and doesn't that compromise their position as an accreditor to some degree?

    Evidently, the ABA and it's committees lobbied states to enact legislation mandating that individuals must hold an ABA-accredited law degree to sit for the bar exam and become an approved attorney, with the exceptions of California and I think a few other states have provisions for law readers/apprentices, etc.

    There was a recent article from a professor at Emory with an interesting and kind of "out there" perspective...

    http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1128416712949

    "Likewise, the lawyers who serve on the committees have an incentive to make law school as long and expensive as possible in order to deter new competitors from entering their profession. Many of the participants in the accreditation system are public-spirited and selfless. But history has shown that the ABA and its accreditation committees often focus on helping law professors, librarians and lawyers, rather than protecting the public -- just as practicing lawyers have often manipulated bar-exam pass rates to limit competition from new lawyers. Indeed, existing lawyers obtained both accreditation and tough bar exams during the Great Depression to reduce competition from a claimed "oversupply" of new lawyers. "

    Anyway, thanks for starting this thread/topic although I know my issues may be tangental to your original question.....
     
  10. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    Re: Interesting topic

    Nearly half the states will allow those with non-ABA-approved JDs -- including those obtained via distance learning from a California bar-qualifying DL law school -- to sit for their bar exams... if not immediately after the non-ABA-approved JD holder graduates, then after said JD holder has practiced law in his/her own state for a few years. Somewhat fewer states -- more than just California -- allow what you call "law readers/apprentices" to sit for their bar exams; or allow readers/apprentices from other states to do so once they have practiced law in their own states for a few years.
     
  11. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    I love you, you love me, we're the DI family

    Sure, Nosborne, sometimes this can be enough of a good thing. If certification, broadly defined, doesn't depend on it, and the UA school is clearly a legitimate enterprise, why not? Jack's right, too. Usually there is a good cheap SA school out there, but not always. If there's no "time bomb" factor, why not? I'm with Bill Dayson on this in both theory and practice.

    P.S. You have become the A-1 Zoroastrian at the crabby Hermann Whatshisname Fan Club. Don't worry, though. It won't last. :rolleyes:
     
  12. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Shaken, not Stirred

    Hey man ... I am not going to touch this topic in terms of content with a ten foot stir stick! (My soap box is over at Troll's Autobody for a tune up ... needs new lights ... breaks are squeeky ... spark plugs are a bit on the rusty side.)

    Besides -- my BAL is 0.0 -- wouldn't want to be pulled over for pontificating whlie sober! (I hear that in some states, that can lead to having an Oldsmobile pointed at me.)

    Pendar-o-nik, goftar-o-nik, raftar-o-nik.
     
  13. Ryan IV

    Ryan IV New Member

    It seems to me that there are so many low cost programs out there that cost shouldn't be a consideration, at least for undergraduate degrees. My home school only charges ~$120 per credit hour for lower level classes and $145 per credit hour for upper level classes. Also, LSU offers their undergraduate classes for less then $80 per credit hour. When you can get prices like that at a regionally accredited school, why go to an unaccredited school? If there are other considerations, maybe I can understand going to an unaccredited school, but I’d be very hesitant to do so.

    I personally think an accredited degree is right or me, just because I have absolutely no idea what I "want to do when I grow up" (as my wife calls it :D ), so I have no desire to set any restrictions or limits on what my degree can do for me.

    S/F, Ryan
     
  14. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    You make excellent points... that is, as long as the issue is courses. But sometimes the issue is an entire program. Sure, one can get cheap RA classes at LSU, but unless one gets to craft one's own degree, that may not be enough. When it's about program, and not just availability of cheap coursework, it can become a different ballgame. Not that that's a big deal or anything... but I'm just sayin'.
     
  15. miguelstefan

    miguelstefan New Member

    The ABA is the second most powerful lobby in this country. (The most powerful being the NRA.) Unfortunately, instead of using that power to use their expertise to help society to enact legislation and create judicial precedents that improve the life of Americans and American Layers the organization is more concerned with limiting the number of lawyers to a minimum. They are not even concerned with protecting their own professional class, making sure legal services available in all communities, or for that matter protecting legal students in cases of academic arbitrarily (I was a victim of this so I know what I am talking about). For example, if you flunk out of medical school you can transfer to another medical school, finish your degree, and take your boards. There is no prohibition by the AMA against it. The same goes for engineers, etc. Furthermore, hearings for students in academic trouble are closed door, with closed deliberation, no representation, and with no appeal recourse. In my opinion the ABA is the worse professional accrediting agency there is. Not because they don't do their job. But because they are doing the wrong job.
     
  16. Oaskie

    Oaskie New Member

    Re: Re: Interesting topic

    OK...that helps explain what can happen to/for grads of unaccredited law schools like John Marshall (when it had lost its ABA accreditation). Also, I've met a few JD holders that don't practice law, but work in business.

    And yes Ryan, at the undergraduate level, there are so many options. The community colleges in GA are really cheap, so cost is not much of a factor. I've heard some complaints about the quality of education (careless teachers) and stressful classes mainly due to unfocused classmates and unorganized admin, but never has anyone said that cost was a problem.. After getting their Associates, most of the graduates I've met go to work in specialized areas, but others go on to Georgia State, Kennesaw State, Clayton State, etc. and the cost is reasonable for those, too.
    ---edit...
    If you have opinions on the Emory professor's article, I'd like to see them...he advocates elimination of the bar exam and of the ABA school accrediting function, in favor of a more freemarket (free for all?) system for lawyers...unless I misread other parts of it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2005
  17. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Uncle,

    Notice? I am not even asking you for a link!

    Well, one of the common criticisms of the ABA standards is that the Standards measure input and not output.

    I have a real problem with that approach myself; it tends to lose sight of the goal which is to produce competent, ethical lawyers.

    Seems to me that the ABA got into some sort of flap with USDoE a few years ago over this exact issue. IIRC, that's when they ADDED (not substituted) some output measures like first time Bar passage rates and the like. I don't remember, now.

    DesElms? Ring any bells?
     
  18. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    QTJ,

    You know, man, I'm beginning to really enjoy your posts. How can a mill shill be so clever and entertaining (not to mention inescapably well educated?)
     
  19. Guest

    Guest Guest

    The secret to my success, Nosborne, is that I have learned (through some very hard knocks) to take criticism extremely personally.

    But wait a second, what do I mean by this? Certainly someone who takes criticism personally ought to blow his stack when someone calls him a troll, a mill shill, or whatever, without evidence.

    Ah, but that is not so! You see -- and here is the secret -- we must realize that when someone says something about us that we feel is an unfair and unfounded characterization, they often are in a frame for saying such things, and they may truly believe what they are saying is an accurate statement. If we refuse to acknowledge that we appear to that other person to satisfy the criteria they have employed in their own minds and hearts to apply those labels, we ignore an important part of interpersonal communications. We effectively disregard the frame of the interlocutor.

    And it is not respectful to disregard the frame of the other party in discourse. It leads to any number of misunderstandings above and beyond the original "slight".

    But if instead we ask ourselves, "What is it about me or my social behavior that brought anyone to think that of me?" we are on the first brick to the path of self-awareness. We have accepted that someone else sees us in some way that is not congruous with our own self-image. We come to understand that we have become a stone around at least one other person's neck, and surely this is to be avoided.

    Now surely we cannot be all things to all people without sacrificing some modicum of our integrity. We cannot please the ears and eyes of all comers. But we can always elect to ask ourselves why we have been perceived as a heavy weight around someone else's neck, and we can reflect on that, and honestly examine our own conduct, and if we do so without the dross of self-deception, we may find ourselves educated in human congress.

    In this way, while we may not please everyone, or even ourselves, we will have at the very least been fair to all sides in the dispute.

    That, and a double Cesar, can go a long way to human understanding.
     
  20. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    Oh, joy!

    Finally...

    ...someone whose long posts are even more difficult to get through than mine.

    Whew! I am dethroned.

    (just kiddin' around) ;)
     

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