Iowa Republicans are furious and confused over Trump's reported DACA deal

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by Abner, Sep 14, 2017.

Loading...
  1. Abner

    Abner Active Member

    Messages:
    7,680
    Likes Received:
    10
    Occupation:
    Educated vagabond, Sensei, Gardner and dog expert.
    Location:
    Cyberspace
  2. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    Messages:
    15,288
    Likes Received:
    16
    Occupation:
    welding engineer-welding inspector
    Location:
    Back from Wakanda
    So, no transparent solar-powered wall?:sombrero::lol:
     
  3. Abner

    Abner Active Member

    Messages:
    7,680
    Likes Received:
    10
    Occupation:
    Educated vagabond, Sensei, Gardner and dog expert.
    Location:
    Cyberspace
    He he! The wall is going to be beautiful, remember?
     
  4. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    Messages:
    9,608
    Likes Received:
    12
    Occupation:
    Police Officer/Adjunct College Instructor
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    Don't count out Trump.

    No, wait, please do. That's when he does his best work. Just ask Hillary.
     
  5. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    Messages:
    15,288
    Likes Received:
    16
    Occupation:
    welding engineer-welding inspector
    Location:
    Back from Wakanda
    No one is counting him out. He's the one who made the deal. He gave up on the wall and gave a free pass to the dreamers. Of course, it's not a done deal yet. The Republicans might come out of the fog long enough mess it up.
     
  6. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    Messages:
    9,608
    Likes Received:
    12
    Occupation:
    Police Officer/Adjunct College Instructor
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    I believe that's what he's planning on happening. If not, he can just back-out of the deal; what are the Democrats going to do, hate him? :rolleyes:
     
  7. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    Messages:
    15,288
    Likes Received:
    16
    Occupation:
    welding engineer-welding inspector
    Location:
    Back from Wakanda
    No that won't help anything. But they might point out that 1) he has once again said one thing and then done another and 2) once again failed to accomplish anything. If the Republicans succeed in derailing this agreement between Trump and the Democrats then they're all right back where they started: no wall, no border security deal, a ticking clock on DACA and no new money for Houston/Florida. Not exactly something to celebrate.
     
  8. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    Messages:
    9,608
    Likes Received:
    12
    Occupation:
    Police Officer/Adjunct College Instructor
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    President Trump could cure cancer, and the Democrats would accuse him of practicing medicine without a license.

    There's an old Army saying, "Everyone already thinks you're an asshole, so you might as well reap the benefits". The Democrats have been desperately trying to paint Trump as the second coming of Adolf Hitler since the election, so he has literally nothing to lose if he screws them. What are they going to do, go on CNN, MSNBC, and the other usual suspects to bash him?

    It's the Boy Who Cried Wolf; every single day, the left goes into hyper-hysterical mode with their bashing and predictions of doom; the average American has tuned them out.
     
  9. Stanislav

    Stanislav Active Member

    Messages:
    2,309
    Likes Received:
    7
    Are you trying to tell me that the only thing that can motivate Trump to keep his word is the prospect of external validation? I believe you're right. More disturbingly, it sounds like you agree with him.
     
  10. Stanislav

    Stanislav Active Member

    Messages:
    2,309
    Likes Received:
    7
    What would it take for you to disapprove anything he does?

    We are in an education-oriented forum. There were long discussions about, for example, Kennedy-Western; most of us had no trouble recognizing it for a scam it was. Now comes Trump University, a criminal scam 10 times worse than KW, and you can't find fault in it. I think that's because you're in a cult.
     
  11. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    Messages:
    15,288
    Likes Received:
    16
    Occupation:
    welding engineer-welding inspector
    Location:
    Back from Wakanda
     
  12. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    Messages:
    9,608
    Likes Received:
    12
    Occupation:
    Police Officer/Adjunct College Instructor
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    Besides getting rid of hundreds of business-choking regulations, Trump has been quite busy accomplishing things behind the scenes, so much so that even CNN has been forced to admit it.

    Democrats are pulling their hair out over this (Opinion) - CNN
     
  13. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    Messages:
    15,288
    Likes Received:
    16
    Occupation:
    welding engineer-welding inspector
    Location:
    Back from Wakanda
    Yeah, that whole "picking names out of a hat" thing must be exhausting.
     
  14. heirophant

    heirophant Member

    Messages:
    719
    Likes Received:
    13
    Which would accomplish what, exactly? Democrats already hate him. You don't need additional Democratic and MSM (and Degreeinfo discussion board) rhetoric to accomplish that.

    If the goal is to influence Trump's base, it's unlikely that anything Democrats could possibly say would influence his supporters very much. Democratic rhetoric has been so hysterial and insane already that Trump supporters don't listen to it or assign it any credibility.

    The thing with Trump is that he negotiates by floating strong negotiating positions at the beginning, designed to shape the battlefield so to speak. If he wants Europeans to shoulder more of the NATO burden, something that they have historically shirked in confidence that the US will always protect them (as they insult us), Trump floats the idea that the US security guarantee is conditional on our allies living up to their responsibilities and that we might conceivably end up walking away from it. So the hysteria and consternation start, all the over-wrought rhetoric about how America is abandoning the postwar order. But subsequent talks take place in the context of what is at stake, the Europeans get the message and start planning to increase their defense contributions. Which is what Trump wanted in the first place.

    In these negotiations with the Democrats, Trump seems to me to be playing the opposite game. He's suggesting that if Democrats play ball with him, they will get some things they want very badly. So now the negotiation takes place in the shadow of what might be won by cooperating, not what might be lost by failure to cooperate. It remains to be seen whether this gambit will result in any success.

    If he gives away too much, Trump can certainly lose the support of his base, probably more easily than many Democrats think. Contrary to all the bullshit, his base doesn't support Trump because he's Trump, they support him because he's the only person out there who speaks to their issues. If Trump ever walks away from those issues, his base could walk away from him.

    But if that happened, it wouldn't really serve the Democrats' interests, since members of Trump's base disillusioned by something he's done aren't likely to flock to the Democrats. (Unless the Democrats become something very different than they currently are.) What we would see is the appearance of challengers on Trump's right, candidates who strive to appeal to Trump's base more effectively than Trump himself.

    It isn't "the Republicans" who want to derail it. They support DACA and amnesty. The Bushes, Marco Rubio, Paul Ryan, the Wall Street Journal and the lobbyists and the punditocracy. They are in bed with the Democrats on this one.

    But Trump didn't win the Republican primaries and then the general election by being a clone of the Republican establishment. I think that he's well aware of that.

    Again, that might sound hopeful to Democrats who already hate Trump and don't need any convincing. But Trump's supporters see that he's taking on both the Democrats and the establishment Republicans and they see the almost insane hostility he's generating. I think that his base is willing to cut him a lot of slack for not accomplishing all of their agenda. Who would do any better? The Democrats??
     
  15. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    Messages:
    15,288
    Likes Received:
    16
    Occupation:
    welding engineer-welding inspector
    Location:
    Back from Wakanda
    Yes, but are they going to continue to support him if he doesn't accomplish any of their agenda? Because so far that's the situation.
     
  16. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    Messages:
    9,608
    Likes Received:
    12
    Occupation:
    Police Officer/Adjunct College Instructor
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    You really think that's how the process works?
     
  17. heirophant

    heirophant Member

    Messages:
    719
    Likes Received:
    13
    If Trump hasn't done anything, then why is he being opposed so frantically?

    I'd suggest that in the eyes of his voters, he's already engineered something of a revolution:

    As far as Trump's voters are concerned, writing new laws and regulations, constantly expanding the size and intrusiveness of the federal government, isn't always the best way to respond to every perceived problem, whether real or imagined. Slowing that down is a victory in itself. So for Trump voters, a long list of legislation passed isn't what they want to see. That's not necessarily how they judge him. (Especially when they know that he's fighting not only the Democrats, but the establishment Republicans as well.)

    It's a victory to have an administration that isn't going to use the Justice Department, EPA and IRS as the enforcement arms of one political party, filing federal lawsuits and demanding audits against anyone who opposes their agenda.

    It's a victory to have an administration that doesn't believe that US immigration law is merely optional. While tax law, business law, civil rights law, labor law, environmental law and all the rest must supposedly be zealously enforced, even if the laws conflict with people's desires.

    It's a victory to have an administration that doesn't treat free-trade as an object of unquestioning faith, as it makes a wealthy investor-class ever richer, while factory towns are devastated and millions are out of work.

    It's a victory to have an administration that realizes that the reason why the United States won World War II wasn't because we had better soldiers (the Germans and Japanese had excellent soldiers) but because we were able to flood the world with ships, tanks and planes, all in the short span of 3 1/2 years. So what's going to happen if the US goes to war with China and they have all of the factories?

    It's a victory to have an administration that's willing to wean the US off imported Middle Eastern oil in favor of greater reliance on domestic energy supplies.

    It's a victory to have an administration that is willing to tell allies that they have to contribute more to our joint alliances, as opposed to always being free-riders dependent on us while criticizing us furiously behind our backs. (Americans see that and start to think, 'fuck Europe'.) It's simply a fact that with the end of the Warsaw Pact, Europeans no longer face any existential external military threat, apart from the Baltic Republics perhaps. So let the Europeans handle the defense of Europe, with us to lend a helping hand if they need it.

    It's a victory to have an administration that takes a more skeptical view of China, which is where the long term threat will come from. (Even if billionaire Silicon Valley moguls dream of China as the 'yellow brick road' to infinite wealth.) Hillary and Obama spoke of the need for a 'pivot' in our strategic focus from the Atlantic to the Pacific. They were right.)

    It's a victory to finally have an administration that isn't racist, constantly playing divisive identity-politics with favored voting blocs.

    It's a victory for the Education Department to rein in Title IX, stopping the federal demand (otherwise lose federal funding) for universities to set up their own parallel "justice" system, kangaroo courts to try political cases (often accusations of sexual harassment or sexual assault) in parallel with the police and conventional justice system, without any sort of due process for the accused such as representation by an attorney or right to question those making accusations, and with university administrators (compliance officers whose job is to get convictions) serving as prosecutors, judges and juries.

    It's a victory to have a President who is personally willing to challenge 'political correctness' and the 1984-style attempts to control the boundaries of discourse by rewriting history and by trying to control what can and can't be said (and hence, thought).

    It's a victory to have an administration that's revealed journalism, the media and academia to be distorting fun-house mirrors rather than sources of an accurate, unbiased photographic depiction of reality.

    And it's a victory to have an administration that isn't motivated by neo-puritan moral judgementalism, trying to shame opponents into submission with incessant accusations of moral guilt. ('Racist! Fascist! Bigot!).
     
  18. heirophant

    heirophant Member

    Messages:
    719
    Likes Received:
    13
    Iowa Republicans aren't the only ones who are furious.

    Nancy Pelosi (the Wicked Witch of the West) appeared at a event today where she was scheduled to talk about Congressional attempts to pass a 'Dream Act' to replace Obama's DACA executive order, which Trump has ordered to terminate in six months. A crowd of illegal aliens disrupted the event and took over, accusing Nancy of 'lying'. accusing the Democrats of being a 'deportation machine' and demanding legal status for all illegals or for none.

    Nancy tried to reason with them, got visibly flustered, and eventually walked out.

    'You're a Liar:' 'Dreamers' Confront Pelosi Over DACA Negotiations With Trump - NBC Bay Area
     
  19. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    Messages:
    15,288
    Likes Received:
    16
    Occupation:
    welding engineer-welding inspector
    Location:
    Back from Wakanda
    What I think is that Donald Trump hasn't a single idea who any of these people are or what qualifies them for the job. I think that staffers feed him the info and then he wings it - throws a dart at the dartboard - whatever. I don't think he has the first clue about any of it. The fact is, I don't think he's very smart.
     
  20. Stanislav

    Stanislav Active Member

    Messages:
    2,309
    Likes Received:
    7
    Yep, no reason to take this wall of text seriously.
     

Share This Page