Has the Oregon ODA Prosecuted Anyone?

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Kirkland, Jun 22, 2003.

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  1. Kirkland

    Kirkland Member

    Oregon has become notorious as a reference by the media (as well as those who feed the media information as in the Callahan story.) I've read on this forum the penalties the degree police there can inflict upon those evil doers with earned, legal, and legitimate State Approved degrees.

    They give the impression they are chanting shamans, rattling their bones and talismans, making proclamations to scare the scareable. I would not be surprised if they have figured out that it is better to do this than actually prosecuting anyone and then getting overturned publicly...

    Is there any actual case history of the ODA successfully prosecuting anyone with a state approved degree that is supposedly illegal there?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 22, 2003
  2. tcnixon

    tcnixon Active Member

    I would think that the better place to ask this question would be the ODA. They've been very up-front about what they're doing. I'm sure than Mr. Contreras would be more than willing to answer your question.



    Tom Nixon
     
  3. Kirkland

    Kirkland Member

    Re: Re: Has the Oregon ODA Prosecuted Anyone?

    You'd think... however when I asked Mr. Contreras that very question in person last year, he was very evasive providing much shamanism in a logically clouded response.
     
  4. David Boyd

    David Boyd New Member

    No, they know if they actually prosecute anyone the statute will be challenged constitutionally, and would likely fail – just like in Florida.
     
  5. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    Does anyone really want to be the test case?


    Bruce
     
  6. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Why do you use the word "notorious"?

    Nice imagery. Of course, shamans are no less legitimate religious practitioners than Baptist ministers and Catholic priests.

    Does the ODA even have law enforcement powers or a legal staff funded to conduct trials? Or would they have to hand their case to the state's prosecutors, who would almost certainly assign it a low priority? (Misdemeanor, no clear victim, the prospect of costly litigation and appeals etc.)

    I've always kind of seen this Oregon law as something never intended for zealous enforcement. Rather, it defines the legal status of non-accredited degrees, namely illegal for use in Oregon unless checked out and approved.

    That in turn would clarify other court cases where questioned degrees came up. For example, a wrongful termination suit or a fraud trial. There would be no need to fly in John Bear to give expert-witness testimony that School X is bogus. All the plaintiff's attorney would have to do is point to the relevant Oregon state law declaring the degree illegal.
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Re: Has the Oregon ODA Prosecuted Anyone?

    It depends on the meaning of the term legitimate, much like the legitimacy of degrees.
     
  8. Kirkland

    Kirkland Member

    Re: Re: Has the Oregon ODA Prosecuted Anyone?

    "Notorious" in the sense that a piddly one-man band government office in Oregon with a charter to protect Oregonians from fraud has branded every graduate from a state approved school a criminal and the degrees from those schools as illegal. On a related point, he/they in the ODA insist upon the stupidly excrutiating process of individual school approvals (e.g. SCUPS) even though all of the CA approved universities are certified under the same regulations and body of law (which is readily available in great detail for reference by the ODA). The ODA could under the current legislation enact a waiver to permit schools approved under a certification process such as CA. The fact that they don't is indicative of dullardness that is notorious. I also think it is an appropriate desciption when one considers the recent Callahan stories and the manner in which Oregon was referred to by the GCN reporters as something of an authority. Their extreme position has gained them a certain notoriety (no other state has been mentioned in those articles). One would think that the sole determinant of degree legitimacy is the State of Oregon and the US DOE. BTW, it was obvious those reporters were fed their Oregon ODA awareness by those who enjoy the ODAs extreme position.

    On the other point... I think the image of a witch doctor going through all manner of histrionics scaring the bejesus out of his constituents in order to keep them compliant to the ongoing policy (whatever that might be) is appropriate. ... it was not a reference made in a religious context.
     
  9. c.novick

    c.novick New Member

    In the world we live in today, I do not see Oregon prosecute for a degree that is state approved. I am sure there would be pre- trial intervention even if it ever went that far. Odds are a fine and/or job loss.

    This is a time where the violent/ felony convicted people face a slap on the wrist. Use of a state approved degree? Not too high on the food chain.

    Out and out diploma mill scams may stand a better chance of facing prosecution as they should.
     
  10. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    The ODA has been very effective, IMHO. It is a reference point for many even outside Oregon. IIRC, an example would be the recent Callahan case where an article referred to Hamilton University degrees being illegal in the state of Oregon. I believe that it has gone a long way in putting a dent in degree mill fraud. Look at K-W as an example, K-W won't admit Oregon students. K-W has to look for their victims else where. Other potential victims have not given their money to K-W after seeing the ODA website. I believe that even RJT was given pause by the website. One of his favorite arguments when he first joined this board was claiming that K-W degrees were 100% legal. It took a link to the ODA website and 2 or 3 reminders but he no longer makes that false claim.

    I believe that most potential academic frauds are not hardened criminals and seeing a potential "school" listed on the ODA website as being illegal in Oregon will dissuade many degree mill customers.
     
  11. Kirkland

    Kirkland Member

    I believe the letter and intent of the Oregon law and the mission of the ODA is to protect Oregonians from fraud, and that's fine... but they have gone well past that and as an example have essentially trashed the entire system of alternative education in the State of California, its due process, its current 200,000 students, and all of the alumni which may number in the millions.

    It's like dynamiting your backyard to get the rat. Yes, in a sense effective... but hamhanded and overly destructive.
     
  12. kf5k

    kf5k member

    I agree with Kirkland, Oregon has gone too far. In my view they get too much credit for a poor law. Oregon laws stop at their borders. The laws of California are just as important as are those of Oregon. There is already a national accreditor, it's the DETC not Oregon.
     
  13. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Has the Oregon ODA Prosecuted Anyone?

    Every few weeks somebody comes into Degreeinfo, gets all indignant about Oregon, and flames the ODA and/or Alan Contreras.

    But the ODA didn't invent the Oregon policy, the Oregon state legislature did, and directed the ODA to put it into effect. Mr. Contreras' office has done a pretty good job of implementing it, in my opinion.

    Not exactly.

    Use of an out-of-state state-approved degree is illegal in Oregon until the school that issued the degree has been determined to be operating at a level equivalent to an Oregon-approved school. That's not unreasonable, considering that the various states are all over the map, ranging from strict standards to virtually no standards at all.

    If Oregon requires its own schools to meet a certain standard, it makes sense to require the same standard of degrees brought in from outside.

    I disagree

    California-approved schools range from high profile start-ups like the Keck Graduate Institute for Applied Life Sciences to the American International University of Management and Technology, which seems to have popped up on the CA-approved list after being chased out of Hawaii by Mr. Brunton.

    Oregon is probably wise to recognize that California schools need to be examined individually, on a case-by-case basis.
     
  14. Chip

    Chip Administrator

    I look at this a slightly different way.

    Oregon is saying, in effect, "We want high educational standards for use in our state. We realize that a lot of other states, whether or not they offer approval processes, have shoddy oversight. Therefore, we want to ensure that schools we approve of actually meet some sort of reasonable standard."

    As such, it's actually a very flexible program. Much more than, say, South Dakota, where they've simply outlawed all non-RA schools from operating in the state.

    Schools like K-W don't like it, because their substandard programs don't pass muster, and it's an embarrassment from a school that claims to operate legitimately. But I applaud the effort as a means for the sincere nonaccredited schools to get recognized by Oregon. The fact that shoddy schools *don't* pass muster should be something for everyone to applaud... unless, of course, they happen to hold a degree from a less-than-wonderful that's on Oregon's bad list, or are otherwise a degree mill apologist.
     
  15. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    I think that you're incorrect to say that Oregon has trashed the "entire system of alternative education in the State of California". Two of the three unaccredited schools that are accepted by the ODA are part of the system that you claimed has been trashed.

    http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.html

    I'm sure that other schools from the "system of alternative education in the State of California" would also be approved if approval was just requested. The ODA does not go out and search out schools to approve or disapprove. Generally there needs to be a request made for a school to be evaluated.

    Perhaps you have misunderstanding of how the ODA works? I believe that they have provided a website with some very good information, with a small amount of research perhaps things could be made clearer?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 25, 2003
  16. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    I'm curious where you got that figure of 200,000 students.

    A year or so ago I counted 2,310 CA-approved schools. Of these, about 90% were sub-university-level vocational schools. By that I mean the state's truck driving schools, cosmetology colleges and the like. I only saw 259 that offered degrees, and many of these were vocational schools offering associates degrees in things like dental assisting.

    200,000/259 = 772 students per institution, on average. I think that's too high. Most CA-approved schools are a lot smaller than that. They typically operate from a small suite of offices in an office building.

    200,000/2,310 = 87 students. That seems a lot more believable. But now 90% of these students are not earning degrees and the Oregon legislation does not apply to them.

    87 x 259 = 22,533. That would be my guess (assuming that the 200K figure is valid) at a rough figure for the total enrollment in CA-approved degree granting institutions. Again, many of these are associates level vocational schools, so the CA-approved universities offering bachelors degrees and above would have a lower total enrollment.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 25, 2003
  17. Kirkland

    Kirkland Member

    IIRC, it was on an official website such as CPEC. If I come across it again I'll provide a reference. If I'm wrong, I'll stand corrected.

    Looking at the arithmetic, CCU claims about 8,000 students at any given time. I believe SCUPS is in the same range. Given that some of these "bigger" schools will drive the average up, I think it is possible to have an average of 1,000 active students per 200 degree granting schools. Also, if one considers this system has been in place for almost 60 years (started after WWII to augment the California University system which was overrun by returning GIs) and distance oriented schools being active for the past 30, I think the number of graduates could number over a million.
     
  18. Kirkland

    Kirkland Member

    That's fine. Although, what's wrong with the CA Education Code? It seems far more extensive than what Oregon has published. Me thinks there are politics at work here...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 25, 2003
  19. c.novick

    c.novick New Member

    Hey Kirkland,

    I think we can call it "State's Rights" or as you say "politics at work".

    Either way you are correct, and for the record it didn't work for us down here over 142 years ago. Won't change now.
     
  20. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

    I certainly have to applaude both the ODA and Alan. Degree Mills weaken our country in many ways. In the world economy we live in, our country can't afford to discount and devalue real education the way these institutions try to. I believe there is a place for unaccredited schools but certainly not mills like St Regis, KW, and such. It would be nice to see the FBI take action like it has in the past
     

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