Grade Inflation

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by John Bear, Feb 19, 2001.

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  1. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    Your professor was incompetent. Sorry that you just now found out...
     
  2. basrsu

    basrsu Member

    Your professor was incompetent. Sorry that you just now found out...


    Based on one incident, and with no other facts at all--including whether the papers were good, bad, plagiarized, etc.--you are able to make such a declaration. Wow.

    basrsu
     
  3. mattbrent

    mattbrent Well-Known Member

    Since the last few posts have been about papers, I'll add that in the graduate courses I'm taking now, it's amazing how poorly some of my colleagues write. I'll admit I'm far from perfect, but I can handle basic grammar and punctuation. Run on sentences shouldn't be found in a graduate student's paper. I know the focus of grading an assignment shouldn't be on grammar and such, but if it distracts from the paper, grading is difficult.

    I had an amazing writer in my 9th grade World History course this year. His writing was better than some of the folks in my graduate courses, and I can't wait to have him in HIST 111-112 and PLS 211-212 in a few years. If we had more students like him, writing that well in the 9th grade, imagine how well our undergraduate and graduate students would be doing.

    -Matt
     
  4. Go_Fishy

    Go_Fishy New Member

    Yeah, I doubt you are qualified to judge that.



    This is a really interesting issue, and I've actually wanted to start a thread on student writing quality for a while. As part of my dissertation, I am analyzing essays written by undergraduate students from some major universities (Michigan, Indiana, Marquette). Of course, these kids are freshmen and sophomores and at that stage, it is the good ideas that count most. But sometimes I really wonder how these kids got their college-entry essays accepted.
     
  5. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    The above quote hit the nail on the head and is sooooo accurate.

    It's also very difficult to give constructive criticism to some students, trying to explain (or justify?) why they didn't get an A. There are some (not all) students who simply cannot fathom that their writing skills CAN use some improvement and that a particular paper simply doesn't deserve an A.

    I hate it when they say: "But none of the other professors have ever pointed these things out and I've got a 4.0 and.... bla blaa blaaa blah blabber blab bla..." :rolleyes: :mad:

    I always grade hardest in the beginning to set the standard -- and then I try to lighten up. But I don't lighten up on the students who fail to make SOME improvements. They are in the minority, but they're determinately out there. :rolleyes:

    BTW, this year I've been hammering students with some lower grades, but the online university keeps giving me MORE students and classes to teach. :eek:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 17, 2009
  6. Ian Anderson

    Ian Anderson Active Member

    At CSUDH I had to pass a graduate writing exam for my MSQA. I got an 11.5 out of 12. The head of the department initially refused to sign my application to graduate because he had never seen that high a score from a graduate student (I crafted my essay to appeal to academics using "old age and treachery")
     
  7. mattbrent

    mattbrent Well-Known Member

    I got a perfect score on the GRE, but unfortunately, most schools only seem to care about the verbal and quantitative sections. Bummer.

    Working with high school students, I'm about to start teaching community college courses at the high school. In order for the kids to get into the classes, they have to pass a reading and writing exam. I think that's interesting considering I never had to pass either type of exam to get into a four year school.

    -Matt
     
  8. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    Yes, that was incompetent behavior by the professor:

    1. She gave an assignment that no student was able to successfully complete, essentially wasting the student's time over those days.

    2. She did not respect the privacy of the students and violated FERPA by revealing to the entire class that they had failed the assignment.

    3. The mock coffins took time to construct that could have been better spent grading the papers with specific, constructive feedback.

    4. The mock funeral could have backfired if a student with an ADA accommodation would have been present in the class; someone with a learning disability or personality disorder may not have understood.

    5. The mock funeral was disrespectful to the students and their work on the assignment; depending on the culture, the incident could have been seen as offensive. That is, dominant culture vs. minority culture. In the event of a grade challenge, a student could use the incident possibly to mischaracterize the professor's teaching style. Moreover, I don't see how the stunt could have worked beyond the 6th grade level.

    In sum, it was a really poor showing by a professor, assuming the story was told accurately.
     
  9. PsychPhD

    PsychPhD New Member

    Ditto!

    I teach for two programs -- one with mostly adults returning to college the other with mostly traditional college aged students. I have noticed a very obvious trend that the older students tend to appreciate constructive criticism, often thank me for it, and most do then demonstate an improvement in their work.

    In contrast, the college-aged students are usually the ones who give me the "I've never gotten a grade this low," "Who are you to tell me how to write?", "You didn't explain the assignment adequately" (when it is obvious the student didn't even read the instructions). I got some serious heat when I paraphrased something I once heard on a TV show where a student was trying to wheedle a higher grade. "What can I do to get a better grade?" the student asked. "Do better work," was the reply. (Now, in my version, I also included some specific suggestions, but the opening line was ALL that was reported on the end-of-term student evaluation!)

    Now if only that were the standard! I have not gotten any new assignments from my college-aged program for two terms now. The scuttlebutt -- of course there never is any official information about faculty retention! -- is that if you get to a third term with no assignments, you've been "silently fired."

    So much for adhering to standards!
     
  10. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Assuming that this was an early assignment in the semester, I can think of several valuable functions. It wasn't a waste of time at all.

    First, it would have been diagnostic, giving the professor some idea of the kind of work that her students were able and willing to produce.

    Second, grading it as she did was didactic, informing her students that however inflated their level of self-regard and feelings of entitlement, the fact of the matter was that their current work fell far short of professional publishable standards.

    If it's her job to help students rise to that standard, then her first step might well be a little shock-therapy, making them realize that they aren't there already and that getting there isn't going to be automatic and effortless. Attention, diligence and real work are going to be necessary.

    That might be the most important lesson of the entire class, actually. The rest is just technique.
     
  11. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    I agree that giving an assignment that everyone could possibly fail could have value as an early assessment, but her handling of the grading was disrespectful, subject to misinterpretation, and possibly illegal under FERPA. Again, if the story was told accurately, said professor behaved incompetently and was in need of immediate training and/or discipline.
     
  12. David H

    David H Member

    Back to the question at hand --- standards.

    I teach a junior level course and the writing can be, politely put, substandard. I use the first assignment to give feedback. I try to progress the student through the process holding them progressively responsible for fixing things from the feedback. I become a harsher grader based on the feedback given. I try to help the student through the first assignment where to focus and make sure their next assignment better. I write feedback as I want them to write the assignment (Modeling the behavior). I always use the following structure:

    I. Introduction / Expectations of the assignment
    II. Content feedback (did they hit the salient points?)
    III. Writing Feedback (Style/Grammar/Structure) -- things like headings, flow, etc.
    IV. The bottom line - your grade (what I counted what I did not count)
    V. Conclusion

    I have had students not like the feedback which is rare. For the most part, they get the feedback and implement it. Whoa be unto them if they don't.

    I hope this helps.

    David
     
  13. retake

    retake New Member

    This is something that I'm a bit worried about.

    I'll be taking my first college course in January online, which just so happens to be junior level. Although I wrote several research papers and essays in high school, I would consider my writing skills to be average at best. I always come off sounding too colloquial. As a kid, I rarely looked up words that I didn't understand, thus my vocabulary is somewhat weak.
     
  14. David H

    David H Member

    Mine is only one opinion however if you know you are weak, that's half the battle. Find someone that will help you; ask your professor for feedback; be honest with yourself; get help! I want to encourage you not discourage you! You have chosen to embark on getting an education. Don't limit that education to just content, look at style, grammar, format, etc.

    Feel free to send me a PM and we can talk about it individually if you would like. There are others on this board that are English professors and perhaps more qualified, but I will give you my thoughts and strategies.

    Good luck and much success.

    Kind regards,

    David
     
  15. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    That post was pretty well written in my opinion. You'll do ok, I wouldn't worry about it.

    Perhaps the best thing that you can do is read a lot in your subject. It's an academic two-fer, you get the content which will impress your professors when you refer to it in your papers, and you also kind of absorb the academic/professional writing style in which the content was expressed. After a while it will become easier for you to write that way yourself.
     
  16. cookderosa

    cookderosa Resident Chef

    >>

    (above emphasis mine) I so strongly agree. If a math student arrives at the correct answer, that's pretty cut and dry. Beyond that, it's subjective.

    I want to share a quick story from last semester. In my Culinary & Hospitality Math classes, I have roughly 35 students and 1 or 2 sections per semester. It's a pretty busy course, and I have very few significant changes from term to term. One of my worksheets (not a quiz/test) has been in use for 17 years, unchanged.
    Last semester, a student came up to me and questioned his answer. He said I marked it wrong, but he didn't know why. I checked my key, and sure enough, his answer differed from mine. At my desk, we worked the problem together- my answer matched his! I worked it once more just to be sure. Guess what? My student was right, and my answer was wrong. For 17 years, I had marked this problem wrong. This was the FIRST student to come see me and DESIRE to know why it was wrong. I told him as much, and to keep being such a dedicated student.

    The bottom line, is that there is a pool of about 2000 students who missed that question and didn't give a crap about the answer- or more importantly, who felt an obligation to learn the material.

    It can't only be about the teacher. In my case, my mistake only shone the light on a bigger issue IMO.
     
  17. cutedeedle

    cutedeedle I speak Geek. Will translate on request.

    This might make you laugh

    The funniest quote, from an interview with a California professor, was something he did to one of his many semi-literate college students. Student had turned in a very poorly written bit of trash. Professor returned it, no grade, noted on the first page:

    It appears someone has taken perfectly good pieces of typing paper, written your name at the top, along with indecipherable gibberish, and turned these in on your behalf. I am returning this to you so you may complete your assignment.

    An oldie but goodie; note the reference to "typing"!
     
  18. Go_Fishy

    Go_Fishy New Member

    Since the story happened in Europe, I doubt that FERPA plays a major role here. Thankfully, there are still some learning contexts in the world where professors don't have to constantly worry about being reported on or even sued for things they say and do in their classrooms.

    Obviously, a professor can get in trouble for misbehavior in Europe as well; but the fact that this professor never did, should show you what tremendous respect she enjoyed among students and colleagues. Not sure how this fits in with your incompetence hypothesis.


    basrsu,
    mattbrent,
    Dave H,
    cookderose
    and others, would you have a look at my thread on writing quality I just started? I'd value your input on the issue: http://www.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?t=31444
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 19, 2009
  19. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    FERPA is US Law.
     
  20. lovetheduns

    lovetheduns New Member

    Cutedeedle-- this post reminds me of a comment that I had once received from a professor at UMUC years ago (I think circa 2002ish).

    The class was a training and development course and at that time as pretty standard, I had waited until the very last minute to throw a paper together. I think for this assignment one had to use at least 4-6 sources.

    The paper read well-- although I admit it was content-lite. It was a typically well-written thrown together bullshat paper. *lol* It was the type of paper that I could pull off an A or B.

    I had memorized the response from the professor:

    "This paper reeks of filler. The paper reads very well and I would imagine in another class you would receive an A. However, there is no content-- only filler. I will give you a C based on your writing technique and lack of content I am encouraging you to rewrite the paper for a higher grade and this grade will be dismissed."

    I remember blushing and felt that wash of heat you get when you have been caught red-handed. First professor in all of my college years who had put his foot down on the BS I had done since my first years of college. (Undergrad at UNC CH had been a game. NO ONE had ever called out BS and I was attending school to see just how long I could skate by with Bs, As and a few smattering of Cs without any kind of consequence-- i.e. never attending a Chemistry class or section and electing to show up for the final to count as 100% and making a solid C without studying).

    That one professor (and his name does escape me now) did the BEST thing in the world for me. I think my views on my own academic pursuits changed 180 degrees with his one comment. Of course I re-wrote the paper properly and made an A.

    So I greatly admire those of you who DO give back real feedback. It may hork off some students, but it may actually reach those that just needed a kindly push in the right direction.
     

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