Good University is really a DIPLOMA MILL

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by bullet, Nov 19, 2004.

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  1. bullet

    bullet New Member

    Ha! I got your attention with my intro.

    I have a question here that may just complete my knowledge on Degree Mills.

    O.k. say a really serious effort is put together to open a University in the U.S.A., this effort has everything, BUCKETS OF MONEY, CAMPUS, etc.........

    O.k. if under the AMERICAN system I can't get accreditiation right off the bat, I think I read where it takes YEARS, then isn't the degree issued by this new university WORTHLESS?

    Remember the example I am using supposes this University has plenty of everything.


    :D
     
  2. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

    Hi Bullet

    When you say worthless you are using an absolute that may not be appropriate. The way I would describe it is to say the degrees would have VERY limited value until the schools attained accreditation. So in the beginning, students would need quite a bit of motivation to enroll. Perhaps tuition is extremely low or the school has a religious bent that attracts students despite the accreditation status.

    Now if the school literally has buckets of money, they could simply buy an already accredited school that is floundering. I've seen this a couple of times in the last few years. Or they could manuver a friendly take over of such a school like Grand Canyon University. Lots of legitimate options.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 19, 2004
  3. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    It is true that all universities start off as unaccredited schools, where their degrees have limited value. Many issues compound this, such as uneligbility for federal student financial aid.

    Grand Canyon U and Southern Virginia U. are examples of friendly take overs of schools. On other cases, a new for-profit school is bankrolled by its parent company (e.g. Jones International & U. of Phoenix). In other scenarios, an existing school can set up a branch campus that eventually becomes accredited on its own (e.g, Cal State San Marcos).

    Tony Pina
    Northeastern Illinois University
     
  4. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Also, if I understand correctly, schools can receive less-than-accreditation recognition from the regional associations while they are pursuing accreditation. A school can be a "corresponding" institution or a "candidate for accreditation" for example. This sort of recognition definately would NOT be available to a diploma mill.

    N.B. for law students: The ABA does not have these categories; a school receives "provisional" accreditation which, except for being temporary, is exactly equal to full accreditation as far as the student and Bar authorities are concerned.

    There is both risk and opportunity here. I noted in an earlier post that Liberty University's new law school isn't yet accredited and is also much cheaper than most private and some public law schools. Now, LU knows what it is doing in the University business. There is no reason to suppose they won't acquire provisional ABA accreditation before they graduate their first class of J.D.s. If they do, these degrees will be fully accredited. A student willing to risk it would save a LOT of money by choosing LU.
     
  5. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Nosborne's comments about pre-accreditation statuses is spot-on.

    It seems, in practice anyway, that earning a degree from a school while it is in pre-accredited status doesn't seem to be a negative factor once the school is accredited--if it becomes accredited.

    Several examples have been cited already. Here's another: Capella. The founder asked John Bear about buying a school. John suggested he start a new one. That effort became The Graduate School of America and, later, Capella. (Some argument exists over whether the name change was a good one.)

    A well-funded, credible start up will be taken seriously and not be considered a diploma mill. This can be compared to the myriad of "universities" that hide behind their accreditation dodges for decades, "universities" who have many fans--all of whom connected to them in some way, it seems.
     
  6. bullet

    bullet New Member

    big deal

    Thanks for the many responses.

    This one is for Rich Douglas, PhD., or anyone that knows.

    So, if I was at a serious american school that is doing everything it can to obtain accreditation; and I graduate, still no accreditation but then say two years later it obtains R.A.; what happens to my degree? What I mean is does it obtain value? Can it be "traded in" (sorry for the this expression, I don't what else to use.)


    Thanks!

    :D
     
  7. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    The degree remains unaccredited. However, you may find that it is widely accepted because the school's eventual accreditation vouches for the degree's legitimacy.

    Exception: Bar associations are pretty grim about "accredited means accredited when the student receives his J.D." There are a few states that will accept as accredited any degree from a scholl that was accredited at any time during the student's attendence.
     
  8. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Re: big deal

    In general employment situations, you're probably good to go. But, as nosborne points out, licensing situations could be sticky. That's too bad, for even the best law school, for example, will spend some time being unaccredited, yet it must graduate students to become accredited!

    Don't expect a school to "trade in" or "upgrade" its pre-accreditation graduates.
     
  9. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    LU = roughly $18K/year at the moment. Where did I read... or did I actually read this... that UC Davis law school was only around $12K/year... or is that old info now? At least at UC Davis one wouldn't have to worry about losing one's secular viewpoint... that is, if there's any secular safety in subliminal cow and corn indoctrination.

    I've always believed that, rightly or wrongly, when an HR person looks-up a college to see if a degree therefrom which appears on a resume before him/her is accredited, whatever is said university's accreditation status at the moment of said lookup will be what said HR person will presume to be correct about said degree. In other words, notwithstanding that what nosborne48 wrote is completely correct (i.e., that whatever was the accreditation status of the school at the moment you received the degree sticks with said degree), I believe that a bit of laziness on the part of HR personnel who fail to compare the degree's acquisition date against the school's accreditation dates often results in unaccredited degrees being presumed accredited, and vice versa.
     
  10. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

    Re: big deal

    Nosborne and Rich are correct. Please remember though, that a degree earned while a school is unaccredited will always be unaccredited officially. In the same way, a degree earned at at a school that starts out accredited and later loses it, will always be an accredited degree. Then we move in to the practical utility which is more subjective.
     
  11. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    Despite the obvious naughtily gleeful intent of the thread starter, this thread is interesting to me and begs this question (to which I'll bet Rich and/or Dr. Bear -- or perhaps others -- know the answer):

    What if one wanted to start a school; but what if said one categorically agreed with the State of Oregon and believed in his/her heart that degrees/diplomas/certificates not accredited by USDoE/CHEA-approved agencies are inherently bad and simply didn't want any such documents/transcripts floating around out there bearing his/her new school's name; and, therefore, wanted to be accredited by a USDoE/CHEA-approved agency from said new school's opening day? How would one accomplish that? Or could one? If one couldn't, then is not the imprimatur of accreditation and its mandatory waiting period, generally, and in this very weirdly narrow sense, something of a paradox? If one believes that a school should never issue credentials which aren't accredited; but if one's school must issue them for at least a period of time before becoming accredited; then what to do? Or is there a well-known way around this problem that I've somehow managed to miss in all my thread-reading around here?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 19, 2004
  12. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    DesElms:

    At the moment, all four UC law schools are charging an additiona $7,000 a year to professional degree students, including law students. So, it works out to the low $20,000s, more than LU.

    The regional associations and DETCh require a school to be a going concern before they will grant accreditation or even candidacy. However, R/A candidacy can be granted after one year of operation, so just don't graduate anybody in the first year.

    Or talk to WAUC. :D
     
  13. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    For a real-life example, consider Soka University of America: http://www.soka.edu

    Here's a campus tour with a list of newly constructed buildings you can click on for photos (some of the buildings are architecturally impressive) and descriptions: http://www.soka.edu/page.cfm?p=20

    The Buckets of Money are obvious at this place. The new UC Merced probably hopes it turns out half as nice.
     
  14. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    OH! My mistake. I thought that was Kennedy-Western's new campus in Wyoming.
     
  15. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Or the person making the decision could conclude that a degree earned at a school prior to its accreditation is just as legitimate, since the school might be presumed to have been operating at a sufficient level during the time prior to accreditation.

    Of course, all of this presumes that (a) HR personnel will check and (b) they understand what it is they're checking. My doctoral research indicated that, in many cases, one, the other, or both do not occur.
     
  16. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: big deal

    Personally, I'd rather have the former, because most people check a school's current status (if they check at all, which seems to be seldom). But the argument for the latter is quite true, and one some poeople have to make.
     
  17. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Apparently SOKA has applied for R/A candidacy. From what little I have learned about the process, they're very, very likely to get candidate status in the near future.

    BTW: The University of Arizona Graduate School will recognize U.S. bachelor's degrees ONLY from regionally accredited schools OR R/A candidate schools. No DETC, apparently.
     
  18. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    There is no way for a free-standing school to avoid issuing degrees before its accreditation. Criticism comes to those schools that never achieve accreditation, yet continue to operate. (I've done some work for two schools that were not accredited, both very early in their development. One never did move in that direction. The other is working on it.)

    One way to do this is to affiliate with an accredited degree-granting school while preparing to become a free-standing one.

    All of this shouldn't matter these days. It's hard to imagine a legitimate and substantial school being established and then wrongly denied accreditation any more. The days when Walden, Sarasota, and others like them would be kept out seem to be over.
     
  19. bullet

    bullet New Member

    actually not

    Des Elms,

    Actually I gave this thread a "happy tone" to it, but the question is serious.

    There are advantages and disadvantages to the american accreditation system and this seems to be one in my view.

    Say for example in the latin "recognition system" you can expect it to take around (1) year, if you have everything in order, of course I am not locking every latin country into this one year guideline.

    Anyway, now I can tell that the first grads of a good american schools are well.................out of luck if they graduate from a school that is not yet, R.A.!!!!.

    :eek:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 19, 2004
  20. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Out of luck?

    Well, no, not exactly. A legitimate school should attain candidacy status within that first year. Not accreditation but decidedly not an "out of luck" status, either.
     

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