Fastest PhD

Perceptions

I won't get into the chicken or the egg argument, but yes the inputs at the Ivies probably cause most of the excellence in output. However, since recruiters tend to visit the places they can most likely get quality that gives their graduates a real leg up. Another thing that goes along with it is professional accreditation. I would put a rough estimation that 70% to 80% on ads in the CHE recruiting business profs require the person to have a degree from an AACSB accredited program. That is a differentiator that would screen out a candidate from a school without it regardless of their background.

 

Re: Re: B & M

I'm expecting an acceptance into Nova's DBA any day. Then, I'll decide between Nova and Northcentral. Nova's clearly superior with respect to its footprint in the academic placement arena. However, its a hybrid that has a great deal of residency.

Having been through the B & M PhD thing, here's how I boil it down to practical terms. If someone looks at your resume and your are working full time in a "normal" career job while doing your PhD, it's distance learning - period. In that sense, I view them as homogeneous. Having said that, Nova, Capalla, Northcentral, European degrees; whatever, are comparable only in the margin, because employers already dropped you in the "DL" pile of applications.

A logical rebut that a DL degree obtained via extension from a B & M school is "better" than a strait DL degree is one I would sign onto, but same does not exist as a business PhD program today. Nova is the closest thing to a B & M that I've found while being able to continue working.

Also, I'm not convinced that getting a Eurpoean degree by DL is "better" in the margin, but I ruled them out because of the travel and cost. Another reason I rulled them out is because without coursework equaling 18 hours, community colleges might baulk at the degree, since that's a requirement in my state of Florida. I know little of Eurpean degrees, but many do not have structured coursework.

In summary, my time is worth about 1.5-2.0 courses in expense per week, so I'm doing what is the least intrusive and the most enjoyable. NCU's gig is nearly all finance courses: not one management course! I was waived from all that crap. I don't need or want management, although it is a worthy and marketable product from a DL perspective. Plus, NCU is a PhD in Business Administration. For me, if I'm in the DL bucket anyway, I'm counting on my professional experience and publication quality to negate any weakness in the degree confiring institution.

It's a risk, but it's all good to me as it's just a glorified hobby.

Dan, if you PM me, I'll send you an excel spreadsheet that I prepared to compare a few programs.

 

Oko,

I agree with you here. If I had a PhD in accounting at this precise moment, even one from NCU would help me to land a full time job at a top tier school since now they are hiring people with MBAs as full time faculty and people with bachelor's with license alone for adjunct positions since few people are available in this field given the high demand in the market for accountants.

On the other hand, we have many Harvard PhDs teaching at the community college level in fields that are really competitive as history or philosophy. So I guess it depends a lot on the demand of your field.

 

Re: Undergrad versus Grad

I believe I understand the point you're trying to make here and I don't entirely disagree with you. However, there are times when the Ivy League school is not the preferred school. For example, a few years ago the Philosophy grad program at NYU was ranked higher than the one at Harvard (and all the other Ivies). This, of course can be sliced even finer by asking about a candidates area of specialization and determining who the dissertation advisor would be. There are scholars in the field of Philosophy (and many other fields) who are true celebrities. They make big money and pull students from all over the world. People like Peter Singer, Thomas Nagel and Alasdair McIntyre (who never earned a PhD, btw) could work anywhere they want (and they do). If someone of that stature were to accept a position at, say, the University of Connecticut, which is already considered to be a very good school for Philosophy, then there are lots of people who would gladly turn down Harvard for a chance to work with that person. In short, the Ivies have very, very good generic reputations but once you get down to the specifics of particular academic departments and specific dissertation advisors, these rankings don't always mean too much, at least to people who know the real story.
Jack

 

Re: Re: Re: B & M

If an employer saw henley management college DBA on your application, and you were working full-time I don't think they would throw your application in with the rest of the DL apps. Henley is a top business school and has highly rated programs. Many of the other virtual university's programs are either unknown or unproven in the academic world.

I think henley requires a fair amount of residency so it probably would be difficult with a full-time job anyway. Even Heriot-watt has a fair amount of name recognition, and most people in academia know about its quality.

In the rare case that the employer still throws the application in the DL pile no matter how good the university is, I would not want to work for that person. It's a sign they are poor at their job and need to get with the times.

 

If you look at my post...

If you read my post carefully you will see I specified that what was important was your career field. I used Harvard versus UofI for teachers as an example of where you got your degree means little or nothing. I also pointed out that while my daughters school is considered a 2nd tier school overall that it's anthro program is considered one of the better ones. In her career field (forensic anthropology) there isn't an Ivy League school in the top five schools and her dream school is the University of Tennessee. It has a lower accptance rate to it's forensic antrhropology program than Harvard Business school has to its MBA program.

I also understand the point in a shortage field you can use almost any legitimate PhD. This is true, however, even there when a graduate of a DL school goes up against a graduate of Harvard with the same work experience who do you think will win out?

 

Where you get your law degree and how well you did will affect your career opportunities for the rest of your professional life in both the academy and practice.

As to the Ph.D., though, doesn't the thesis advisor matter as much as, or even more than, the school?

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: B & M

I checked it out and it looked like you had to be over there to do the program. How employers view DL's from B & M schools is a toss up for sure. I am certainly no authority on this. My guess is that a professional master degree like the MBA would be viewed with less negativity, but with the DBA or PhD, my feeling is that they'd feel differently. These folks are burocrats, who have an extremely difficult time believing that much can be accomplished outside of the traditional mentorship, traditional, full-residency program. Expecting them to embrace an educational platform that actually diminishes the need for the products and services that they provide may be wishful thinking in the next 10-15 years as this "generation" steps aside. I worked in the midst of these folks for a couple years and frankly, I see their point.

I respect your opinion and wish you luck. I'm interested in a small 4 year college (1,500 to 2,500 students) where teaching is rewarded, if I teach down the road at all. I would of course do teh best program that you have time to do. For me, it's all about time, hence the 100% online option. In part, I'm rolling the dice that DL and as a subset, 100% DL will become more widely accepted such that I'll have some utility when it comes time to use it in say 2020.

Good luck.

 

That may be true for law because there are too many lawyers any way. So employers can afford to discriminate in that field. Nevertheless, if you are not winning cases or you are not pulling in clients, you will be shown the door regardless of where you obtained your degree.

Oko

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: B & M

Messagewriter, believe me your resume will never be tossed up into a bin because it is DL degree. I heard those 16/17 years ago as an undergrad student. I now work in a prestigious research oriented public health organization. None of the things I read here about employers tossing resume occurs. Resume/CV is reviewed in their own merits using many variables that some people here often failed to capture in their post.

In addition to other degrees I hold AACSB accredited MBA. I am not a fan of it because I have seen too many people graduate from schools without such accreditation with incredible success. True, a few schools may want it but there are far too many schools that do not require it to teach. I have written extensively on this issue in this forum in the past that is needless repeating them. Also your professional accomplishments often trump a lot of things as well. Holding a degree in hand is only a first step.

Ivies get quicker employment as a new graduate because they have more alumni than most other schools. At the end of the day however, you make the same bucks. These days’ employers rarely visit schools compared to past years. Now you apply for jobs online. I wonder why online? There must be something we do not know here.

 

oko's comments

Thanks.

I hope for the best, but trust the market incentives. The demographics and demonstrated demand (U of Phoenix is > $1.5 billion on the top line now) support the continued growth of DL in the USA. I think it's a $4 billion dollar market now and growing. As these companies shake out, go public and can "afford" to raise standards, quality will improve over time and hence, academic appeal for the graduates over time.

Clearly I'm referring to the average person. Those who excel or are excepionally driven and/or bright get to the top no matter what, as you have pointed out.

Good luck with your program and thanks for your comments.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: B & M

I think Messagewriter refers to academic and not industry jobs. I totally agree that in industry the origin of the degree is not as important as experience and results shown in the business.

However, full time PhD students at B&M schools develop the kind of experience that is required for academic jobs as is teaching, publication and networking with researchers. The idea that someone can just get a DL PhD with no teaching or publication requirements and be able to get a full time tenure position in a field as business where you have a line of PhDs from traditional schools waiting for a full time gig is unrealistic.
Unless the applicant makes up this lack by teaching part time or publishing, I can see that Messagewriter point is relevant when making a decision for a DL PhD and you should aknowledge the limitations of your options.

 

RFValve's comments

Yea, thanks. I'm talking about academic jobs. It seems to me that the top of the distribution of DL learners at the PhD level is for those already hired, but who need a PhD to keep climbing. Plus, there are many who frankly just want the enrichment and personal challenge.

I figure my biggest challenge will be the lack of AACSB. AACSB schools, by virtue of the regs promulgated by AACSB, may have a few PhDs around whose schools were not AACSB I think, but it's rare. But as an adjunct, I'd be able to at least teach graduate courses, rather than undergraduate, with any RA PhD. If I were to go after a full-time teaching gig, it would be at a non-AACSB B school for sure, which is fine because they'd be looking for quality teaching, rather than high publication productivity.

I also think these DL PhDs might be useful in getting a job at an institute or center within a university. Over time, perhaps one could do teaching by opportunity around the campus. Who knows, but one things for sure, I beleive one must have professional experience of high value to academic employers (the value of which varies by field) in order to overcome the DL issue, since as you pointed out, one's resume would be evaluated as part of a large stack. As burocrats, B & Ms will continue to flood the market with PhDs, regardless of whether they place or not. I have great respect for programs who only intake the number that they can place effectively, but this is less often than would be preferred.

 

Re: RFValve's comments

Most of the B&M universities only take few PhD candidates a year in field. As you pointed out, they want to make sure that the candidate is placed in a good place to keep good reputation rather than graduating tons of graduates that harly with get a job in a place where the PhD is required.

One think that concerns me is the amount of PhD graduates that some DL schools seem to graduate. It seems that some schools are not concerned about this and saturate the market. I guess they rather let the market to decide this.

 

oversupply of phd

I'd guess if half the US population were accepted into US DL programs, the DL schools would enroll them all. I'd sure like to know early, so I could buy their stock. Don't think DL are in the same market on the placement side, so I doubt there would be too much of a problem. I have noticed many B & M schools developing applied focuses to their degrees such that private sector placement is more a rational option. I think it took the dean's threat of reduced budgets (reduced production) in order for the academics to see the rational in redesigning their degrees away from academic and into the private sector, but it does seem to have happened.

In that regard, the private sector may be continuing to absorb some of the over supply more quickly if PhDs have some applied focus. But in the private sector, the employers can deal with over suppy by just sorting the applicant pile by degree and really not give much compensation for a PhD. Alternatively in academia, the over supply seems to result in unemployment. As the baby boom retirement rate grows, perhaps the market will continue to improve for academics.

I believe for competent younger PhDs, the abolition of tenure would be best in improving their chances of moving up in institutions. Employment contracts based on outcomes and career long competency would vastly improve academia in my opinion, and ensure those most competent are at the top of the food chain, thus taking chronology out of the equation.

 

Lower tier BM universities also have that reputation of accepting anyone that applies (especially in bachelors and even masters degrees). PhD programs from these low tier universities are still more protected, but I guess it depends on which field you apply to (doctoral programs in education accept just about anyone who meets the minimum requirements).

Unfortunately, the PhD glut in academia has been around longer than many of the new RA DL schools. A large chunk of DL doctoral students are already teaching at colleges, research I universities or working full time in the private sector. So most of them are already placed. I think only a small number of business DL PhDs actually apply to teach at research I universities, and they pose no threat to other job applicants with traditional doctorates (because of the actual bias against DL).

The for-profits were the ones who started this trend of designing degrees that match current market demands.
Non-profits have always been slow to adjust to any market changes. But, yes, they are starting to change this to be able to compete with the for-profits.
Wether you think if this is a good thing or not depends on what you like.

In the end, I would be more concerned with faculty using bogus PhDs from mills that have great traditional names.

S

 

It seems to me many people just talk or write based on their feelings not based on reality or facts. What are lower tiered schools? Who determined whether a school is lower tied or not? Newspaper rankings? People? Based on what? As a recent immigrant, I continue to make my contributions here based on what I have experienced and other immigrant relatives of mine.

Within the past three years, three of my relatives in Boston area have graduated from what many in this forum would classify "low tieredd" schools and have all gotten jobs in the big five accounting firms and a prominent brokerage firm in Boston. One of them has registered for his MBA and is being paid for by his employer. Two of the three are females.

To continue to propagate the myth that you can't get job unless you graduate from so called high tiered school is really a disservice to those who do not know any better. To also assert that unless you graduate from AACSB schools you can’t land a good job is also a disservice since AACSB like its sisters alphabet soups accredictors are only money making organizations. They add no value. I can understand if they were precursor to some licensing or registration. They now accredit courses to make money. Yes. Big name schools may be AACSB accredited but they have the most selective student criteria also. They get some of the best of the best any way and who would have done well regardless of where they went to school.

If people like me and those like me with no connections "godfatherism or motherism" whatsoever can make it and be in the league with any other graduate, I see no reason why anyone else cannot do so with equal result. I graduated my bachelor in the late eighties. It isn't like ages ago.

There is no such thing as DL degrees. There is only a degree. Degrees can be earned through any mode. If you have a degree and not proud of it and cannot demonstrate your potential or competence that you are worth the degree, why should you be hired. This not limited to distance learning. Why should you apologize for obtaining your degree, any degree through any mode?

You are not always going to be hired by everyone regardless of where you went or the degree you hold. I see no saturation of degrees in a country where less than 30% hold a bachelor degree and much, much less hold Master and above degrees even with the advent of more alternative delivery learning methods.

I am sure all these nonsense about distance learning were previously made when schools started their evening programs years ago. There were probably those who speculated then that degrees from evening programs and satellite campuses would be worthless. Hasn't that been accepted today? We have people who got their evening MBAs now cabinet members in the United States government.

Those professors from any school who attack distance learning are merely afraid of their jobs. They have outlived their usefulness in academic settings. If only they know how today's government businesses are conducted or how many professionals they relied on outside their academic settings obtain their continuing education requirements, they would not be so against distance learning. I hope such people never have to teach my kids. They can't possibly impact current knowledge.

These DL issues debate are only here in the United States. Most parts of the world where distance learning have always been part of learning would not be engaging in such debates.

In an era where people telecommute, medical services delivered (telemedicine), I always chuckle when I read some statements in this forum that go way off what I experience on a daily basis around me at work and in my private life.

It is interesting why some people are attacking DL many B&M schools are setting them up. I wonder why.

Good day everybody.

Oko

 

Oko,

I agree with a lot of what you said. I know, this whole issue of what constitutes a high tier or low tier university can be a lot of crap (and I don' necessarily agree with it), but that is what many people go by. Many USnews lower tier schools have great programs. For example, my alma matter the University of South Florida is currently ranked as a low 3rd tier school yet some of its graduate programs are in the top 10 around the world. My point was that bias is going to exist no matter where you go, and a lot of it can be based on just plain snobbery or ignorance. Some people at Ivy league schools resent many USNews lower tier universities for having lax admission policies and graduating more students than ever before. Ironically, many of the faculty at these lower tier B&M universities then go and put the blame on DL schools for doing the same. Crazy, isn’t it? DL takes too much blame for what traditional higher education is guilty for (or what they consider to be a bad thing). And if you ask me, the admission policies of the most respected DL schools are pretty fair. Most of them require RA degrees and a respectable GPA for admission. They are not overly selective but they give each students a fair chance to prove their wits (which is how they do it in Europe btw).

Someone above previously said that, if DL had the opportunity to educate half of the US population it would do it. My response: That would be hard since most people are not that enamored with DL. At a DL school there is no binge drinking, fraternities, college sports or an opportunity to meet that special someone in your life. Plus, DL can be a very lonely and really boring endeavor so open admissions community colleges and state universities would always get 90% of the pie. But if DL really had the chance to accept half of the US population, then so be it. It is better to have highly educated society than one that isn’t.


Like you, I also have not seen much bias against DL or BM degrees from "lower" tier universities or DL schools in the private sector, but it is in academia where the bias seems to be the biggest. Some times for good reason: DL doctorate programs (whether BM or from a DL institution) usually don't prepare you as well in publishing nor do they provide the opportunity to teach. In other cases, they resent the fact that education has become more convenient (not necessarily easier) and that DL PhD graduates often come in with much better work experience in the private sector, and IMO, more hands on experience on what is going on in the real world. For those who have a problem with fast track doctorates, let me tell you that traditional doctorate programs in the past were not as long as they are now. With the popularity of going college in the 80s, PhD programs at traditional schools have become longer and more selective. So I don’t always buy any of the crap that old faculty with traditional doctorates spent more years getting their degree than current students at fast track RA doctorate programs.

I agree. The rest of the world seems to be more accepting of DL degrees, and DL seems to be much more common (and has been around longer) than in the US.

Take care,

S

 

The reality is...

Oko,

Here are some cold hard facts for you that can't be wished away no matter how hard we DL graduates would like to.

a. In your mind AACSB is an alphabet soup which adds no value but most ads posted in the Chronicle of Higher education for business professors specify that you must be a graduate of an AACSB accredited program. That is a fact and if you aren't a graduate from that type of program you are not going to get one of those jobs. AACSB is the single biggest discriminator out there in business schools today. If you are serious about working in academia at a B&M school it is strongly advisable to get your degrees from AACSB accredited schools. It is possible to get a job without it but it is not easy. BTW, I don't have a single AACSB accredited degree but even I can recognize the advantage it provides.

b. You keep using accounting as an example, but accounting is currently a shortage field and in the case of CPA's is a field which has alternate certification to judge the applicant beyond their education. They are not a good example to use when comparing them to other career fields. My wife got a programming job with a 1-year programming certificate from a DL DETC school during the IT shortage. She wouldn't be able to do that today.

c. No one has ever said that you cannot get into a good MBA program with an undergrad from a lower tier school. Once again, there are other qualifications like GMAT score and work experience that come into play there. You can even aspire to HBS if you have a good enough GMAT and WE.

d. We are talking academia here. Many very qualifed people do not get hired in the first place, or later get denied tenure, simply because they are not a good "fit" with the other professors. The point is qualifications are only half of the hiring process in academe. This is where the DL or lower tiered school bias comes into play. Try to wish it away all you want but it is there and we will fight it for years to come.

I have 3 degrees, 2 earned at night and one online. I am now working on doctorate by research from a foreign school. I worked hard and am still working hard for my education and I am not ashamed of the degrees. However, I am not blind to the fact that some people will think them of a lower class because they are from night or DL schools. I work in an environment where a degree from Southern Illinois gets less respect than UI-UC. I have a friend who graduated from SIU-Carbondale (they have a party school reputation) that went to an interview and was asked if he "had paid tuition or a cover charge there". He didn't get the job. There are biases everywhere and to think there isn't in DL is to ignore the obvious.

The conference I attended in October actually had 2 presentations from professors lambasting DL. Their presentations were extremely poor and didn't even represent DL as it is currently practiced. Their idea of what DL was was outdated by about 10 years. When challenged by my wife their responses were, frankly, pathetic. However, their attitude is common to varying degrees to many in the academic community. On the other hand, I had several people very interested in how I was obtaining my degree. It is all in perception and the trick is to find the right school. However, even if they think you have a valid degree, you may run into the AACSB problem.

Oko, you do not have to defend you degree to us. However, if you think it will be viewed the same as a degree from Harvard, Yale or even Southern Illinois by the majority of people in academia that is not the case in today's world. Neither will mine and that is just the way it is. You will have to work harder to get the recognition for your degree. Recognizing that ahead of time allows you to take the steps necessary to get that respect.

 

Oko

These forum discusions require a level of abstraction in order to move throught the discussions. Typically, I'd think we'd have to be referring to "average" people and "average" circumstances. Oko's case and sentiments, from my perspective and especially after do an NYU degree with 50% internationals, seem to reflect what makes America the greatest nation on earth. A bunch of misfits created an $11 trillion dollar engine in just a couple hundred years. Immigrants coming here continue to bounded only by their own ambition, hard work and determination.

Oko raises an issue that interesting, which is why DL is less prevelent in the US than aboad. I've seen some stats on higher education access, with the US and UK in the >50% and others <30%. These liberal democracies do tend to serve broader segments of the population. I wonder if that's why DL is more widely accepted, because it's an alternative over there for folks who for reasons I don't know, don't have access to the system.

I personally feel that the demographics do support rapid growth of DL in the US in the next 20 years.

The AACSB comments above are accurate I beleive. If there was an AACSB distance PhD in Business of any kind, I'd be in it. It just doen't exit regretabley - yet. The AACSB is a brand, or club, and one you're in, you'd just as soon want to be the last memeber. Plus frankly, membership (accredidation) is very expensive to maintain and to qualify for, mostly in terms of payroll because of who the AACSB like to see teaching, publishing, etc.. These DL companies (business phd programs) have neither the money or clout currently to attract that kind of faculty. Plus, they can apparelty sell the degree right and left without it.

An B & M school that can leverage their existing faculty will bust out with an AACSB business doctoral program and be flooded with applications I'm sure. But there will be a segmentation among "learnes". A 3.5 or better, GMAT north of 620ish and decent work experience will startle some in the DL community, but I believe that demand will be there and will be exceedingly strong. We'll see.