Egalitarianism in Education

Re: Re: Re: Egalitarianism in Education

So, have you always been a Marxist, or is this a brand new mistake?

Jack

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Egalitarianism in Education

The economic theories of Marx have been repeatedly proven wrong; Eastern and Western Germany, Northern and Southern Korea, etc. Nonetheless, his thoughts on social structure where one elite class (aristocrats) dominated and kept subservient the masses (proletariats) has more credibility. His other mistake was to not recognize the emergence of the professional and middle class.

I don't view education in purely capitalistic terms since it is the preparation of our country's youth to compete in a global economy. In education I would like to see a more level playing field where anyone who had the desire and work effort could have the education of their dreams, not just an elite few. We have the technology to provide this, and in my opinion, it should be done. Just as MIT has provided their complete curriculum on the internet the same can be done with Harvard or Yale.

Just a thought.

 

OK, well I'm glad that you haven't gone over to the dark side (economically/politically speaking at least). I would only point out a couple of other things. First, MIT has put a bunch of their stuff out on the internet. That's nice of them. Of course, most of this is available through other sources if one wants to dig for it. While it is providing information, and maybe even an education of sorts, it is not providing degrees as a result. I don't think this would realistically qualify as the education of anyone's dreams as it would be entirely self-taught, entirely unsupported and would not end with the granting of any type of degree. As for your repeated references to "the elite few," there are plenty of people attending Ivy League schools who come from middle class and lower class circumstances. Harvard has clearly stated that no one will be turned away solely by virtue of their inability to pay the costs. I am not naive enough to believe that there aren't people who get into these schools due to their connections. However, if you are trying to say that these schools are populated solely by rich kids then you are simply wrong and I would ask that you offer proof to support such a silly statement.
Jack

 

One example showing that Jack Tracey (and several others) are correct about Ivy League Universities - at least, Harvard University, and its/their offering of full access to even the most financially needy, is here

One example to back up russ's assertion that only the elite few have access to top-notch educational institutions in the US?

?

- Zero! (as in nada, none, zilch!).

Thanks.

 

To Russ - But education, like everything else, is capitalistic. There is an available supply of spaces in our community colleges, technical colleges, bible colleges, four-year colleges, universities, grad schools, seminaries, etc., and there is a demand for those spaces. Since there are only so many schools, each of which has only so many professors, each of whom can take only so many students, there is some process by which the best and the brightest are taken and some students are barred at the door. For those who are accepted, the issue becomes one of how to pay for same and, if one does not have good old personal cash on the barrellhead and so needs to play the financial aid game, the financial aid powers-that-be set up criteria by which the best and the brightest get the money and the others are barred at the door. For those that are not Ivy League material, there are many good state universities and, for those that cannot get into their state's flagship school, there are many open-admission schools. So, under the American system, if you want a degree or an education (or both), if you are persistent enough, you can find something that fits your needs. Also, it is hardly illogical to say that if everyone had an Ivy League degree, then Ivy League degrees would no longer be exceptional. An Ivy League education would, of course, remain great (provided it was not watered down in the process); however, exceptionality is defined by what almost everyone does not have and, hence, if everyone had an Ivy League degree, the standard of excellence or exceptionality would rise due to the commonality of Ivy degrees.

To Jack and Jake - If you follow the thread, you will notice that the Ivy League elites bespoken of here are intellectual elites, who are not necessarily the same people as the economic elites.

 

OK, so let's go there. The fact is, not everyone is smart enough and driven enough to handle the curriculum at a school like MIT (russ, you're the one who brought it up) Brown or Harvard. "Education" is not something that is simply poured into a persons brain. It is a cooperative process and the student must be able to comprehend and to keep up. It is rather politically incorrect to say so, but some people are just plain smarter than others. If you take a person with average intelligence, and you put them in a classroom at MIT, they wouldn't last a week.
The original idea of egalitarianism in education is already in effect. A student can excell regardless of the school they attend. Look at those receiving their PhDs (from anywhere) and see where they started out. There are lots of lesser known schools on that list. Students simply work their way up the ladder (if that's what they want).
Jack

 

Re: Re: Re: Egalitarianism in Education

Silly me. Here I've been under the impression that 'exceptional' meant 'being an exception; uncommon; above average'...

Oh wait! it does!

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=exceptional

So, if everyone had that access to a certain institution, how would it still be exceptional given that it would no longer be uncommon and would, by definition, be average?

 

No, because we are not talking about the quality of access but the quality of the education. I can draw you a picture if that helps...

 

It's remarkable that you offer criticism (plus an insult) to Jake while you steadfastly refuse to answer any of the criticisms of your own postings. You sir, are a cad, a bounder, a popinjay and a filthy blighter.
Jack
(feeling British)

 

Sure. Why don't you draw me a picture showing how the quality of education will remain high if the 'quality of access' does not.

I'd be intrigued to see how Yale Harvard and Princeton, to take the best known examples, will deal with the twenty or so thousand* they would each need to admit in an average year under your 'egalitarian' model.

Is it so difficult? The education at these institutions is exceptional in major part because they are so selective.

* Edit: Not to mention the many thousands of others who would apply.

 

Ivy League Quality for All

I can't resist posting here. Read the whole post before judging me too harshly. My daughters went to, or are going to Ivy League Colleges. My second daughter was accepted to MIT, Cornell and Princeton. She chose Princeton because, while Harvard apparently has adopted a similar policy, I believe Princeton set the precident of not barring anyone because of inability to pay, which is precisely why my daughter is at Princeton and not MIT right now! Can you imagine having to choose Princeton as your second choice school because you can't afford MIT? (Okay, a little braggy...) Well that is what happened to us. Luckily she fell in love with Princeton (and somebody who goes there as well) so she is very happy there. My oldest went to UPenn but ended up transferring, not because she couldn't handle it but it was too expensive for our family and there were other extenuating circumstances at the time. Please forgive my bragging but understand that I did not even go to college until I was 29 years old, and had three small children, one which was a new born baby. I also was in a failing marriage which ended in divorce less than two years into my studies. I hate the term "single mother" but I definitely was one. We qualified for food stamps. You can not imagine how much my oldest daughter helped me out during those years or how proud I was to see her become valedictorian in spite of the hard times she had endured. And then to go off to an Ivy league college. Well, it brings tears to my eyes even now.

I grew up poor and married a truck driver when I was 19 years old. Ten short years ago, I was a truck stop waitress. I did not consider myself poor, but I was certainly "working class." I don't think many here think that it would be my kids that ended up in Ivy League colleges. Yes, I am very proud but I still have a certain perspective that seems to be missed by some in this discussion topic. Yes, I believe I can get just as good of education ANYWHERE as my daughters are getting. This is because learning is something an individual does. A school provides framework, standards, sometimes guidance, and grades. You could do the same thing on your own if you are resourceful and motivated, (minus the grades) and you won't have a degree to show for it. If learning is what you want to do, then learn to your heart's content. It really is out there, and it is equal for all. One of my goals after earning my Ph.D. from NCU is to show this to the world. Having an RA degree means I have at least met the minimum standards for a degree but it does not mean that I am barred from exceeding those standards. People worry about the silliest things. I have gone further than I ever dreamed I would in the past ten years and I will go further, and I don't believe I need to go to an Ivy League school to do it. I know plenty of successful people that graduated from unknown places or who don't have any degree at all. It is still human nature to be proud if you kids get accepted to Ivy League schools.

 

Ivy League Quality for All

I can't resist posting here. Read the whole post before judging me too harshly. My daughters went to, or are going to Ivy League Colleges. My second daughter was accepted to MIT, Cornell and Princeton. She chose Princeton because, while Harvard apparently has adopted a similar policy, I believe Princeton set the precident of not barring anyone because of inability to pay, which is precisely why my daughter is at Princeton and not MIT right now! Can you imagine having to choose Princeton as your second choice school because you can't afford MIT? (Okay, a little braggy...) Well that is what happened to us. Luckily she fell in love with Princeton (and somebody who goes there as well) so she is very happy there. My oldest went to UPenn but ended up transferring, not because she couldn't handle it but it was too expensive for our family and there were other extenuating circumstances at the time. Please forgive my bragging but understand that I did not even go to college until I was 29 years old, and had three small children, one which was a new born baby. I also was in a failing marriage which ended in divorce less than two years into my studies. I hate the term "single mother" but I definitely was one. We qualified for food stamps. You can not imagine how much my oldest daughter helped me out during those years or how proud I was to see her become valedictorian in spite of the hard times she had endured. And then to go off to an Ivy league college. Well, it brings tears to my eyes even now.

I grew up poor and married a truck driver when I was 19 years old. Ten short years ago, I was a truck stop waitress. I did not consider myself poor, but I was certainly "working class." I don't think many here think that it would be my kids that ended up in Ivy League colleges. Yes, I am very proud but I still have a certain perspective that seems to be missed by some in this discussion topic. Yes, I believe I can get just as good of education ANYWHERE as my daughters are getting. This is because learning is something an individual does. A school provides framework, standards, sometimes guidance, and grades. You could do the same thing on your own if you are resourceful and motivated, (minus the grades) and you won't have a degree to show for it. If learning is what you want to do, then learn to your heart's content. It really is out there, and it is equal for all. One of my goals after earning my Ph.D. from NCU is to show this to the world. Having an RA degree means I have at least met the minimum standards for a degree but it does not mean that I am barred from exceeding those standards. People worry about the silliest things. I have gone further than I ever dreamed I would in the past ten years and I will go further, and I don't believe I need to go to an Ivy League school to do it. I know plenty of successful people that graduated from unknown places or who don't have any degree at all. It is still human nature to be proud if your kids get accepted to Ivy League schools.

 

That's quite a story. You have every reason to be proud of yourself and your kids. Best of luck to all of you.

 

Uncle Janko:

I agree with everything you said. A moving epistle, yes, it is.

Suelaine:

Thanks so much for your post. Yours is a beautiful, eloquent, and moving testimony to the power of the human spirit and the love of learning not only for learning's sake but also to improve oneself - and the world.

(Of course, it helps that such learning is obtained from and under the auspices of globally-reputable, legitimately-accredited and independently-vouched for academic programs and institutions).

You and your family have prevailed in spite of the economic odds. Congratulations to you and your daughters. With the grace of providence, you will go far. I will bet on it.

More grease (ummm scratch that, fresh and flavored olive oil) to your elbow.

Thanks.

 

Re: Ivy League Quality for All

Suelaine,

This is a wonderful story and I hope everyone has a chance to read it. Thank you so much for posting it. You have done very well.

I am sure that you can understand, as a proud mother, my point that many more intelligent and capable children should have access to the excellence of education that your child is receiving at Princeton. Think of all the other proud mothers who have worked hard to help their children with their studies and then be denied this kind of education because there is just not enough seats in the classroom. We have the technology to change that and we should use it to allow more of our children to receive the finest education our schools are capable of providing.

Students coming out of college now compete internationally in a global economy. They need the best we have to offer to help our country succeed in this new environment. We need to raise the level of education for all of those who are capable and motivated to earn it.