EENI Business school - and University?

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Johann, Jan 9, 2023.

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  1. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I don't have a beef with TRACS itself. Frankly, I couldn't care less. But I do think institutional accreditation that isn't from the regional associations is unnecessary.

    Either there are standards or there are not for what is and is not a university. There was a brief time when it was obvious that the RAs were not getting with the DL program, and seeing the then-DETC getting involved was pretty exciting. Now it just begs the question: what is the standard? If TRACS and DEAC are the same as the RAs, why have them? And if they're not, why not?

    And if they offer some unique service--like the ABA or AMA accrediting schools in their respective professions, why doesn't TRACS stay in its lane? And DEAC isn't even about a profession or discipline; it's distinction is a instructional delivery method. One so common that it is nearly universal. I mean, who doesn't offer distance learning? (Probably every TRACS-accredited school, for example!)

    I just don't see the argument for them. If they accredit schools that can't get RA, why is that? Are the RAs too stringent? Or are the NAs too lax? Or, as I contend, are the NAs largely redundant?
     
  2. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Why? Partly because they get paid for it. RA Stringency - yes, especially in non-academic areas. Their financial requirements etc. are much harder to meet, especially for a school that hasn't been in operation for a long time. Academically - I'm not sure of the difference. Beyond me. I DO believe it's a hell of a lot more expensive to:

    (a) Satisfy RA financial, faculty, library holdings requirements etc. for accreditation.
    (b) Pay for it. Initially and continually.

    That keeps a lot of schools away. I can cite an example. Morris Brown College in Atlanta lost its RA accreditation in a financial scandal over 20 years ago. They languished for all those years an successive administrations couldn't revive the school. Then came a new team which reached out to TRACS. I firmly believe this was the only way they could qualify, financially etc. to get re-accredited.

    I'd hate to have seen a 140-year-old HBCU go down. And we almost did. Kudos, Hosanna and props to TRACS and the new President and Administration of Morris Brown College, for saving their school from extinction. I believe the school deserved a chance - and TRACS helped then get it. Likely, when no other recognized US accreditor would have.

    If National Accreditors will help a deserving school succeed where others won't - because the others' cost schedule or their financial requirements for the school are out of financial reach - we need them.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2023
  3. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Another example of NA success. University of the People. They were extremely well-financed and competently managed from word "go." Yet they chose DEAC accreditation and kept it for years before applying for RA. There had to be a reason - and I expect that reason had at least something to do with prudent financial management. I'm sure they picked their time carefully.

    That school is run by VERY smart people. It's not my favourite kind of school, - but it's certainly good enough that I'm behind anyone else's decision to go there. Lot of bang for not much buck.
     
  4. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    So, the RAs are too stringent? Shouldn't that be the issue, then?

    What I really wish is for the accreditors--all of them--to move away from input measures and instead look at outputs. There was some attempt to do that for technical/trade schools regarding employment, but universities could stand to be measured on their outputs, too. (Not necessarily employment, but there must something they're trying to produce.)
     
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  5. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    I don't think so. Some schools can meet RA requirements. Some schools can meet NA requirements. Let 'em all live.
     
  6. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Are you saying there should be two different standards?
     
  7. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    In regard to financial requirements etc - most definitely. The differences that are already there. If there are, in fact, any other differences - yeah, those too. Nothing that isn't already in place. What exists now, seems to work fairly well. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2023
  8. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Many are of the opinion that is it very broken.

    I've always held that non-RA institutional accreditation is inferior in the one aspect most important to students: demonstrating the legitimacy of their degrees. On two occasions I demonstrated it--once in producing the statistical analysis presented to AACRAO regarding their own attitudes towards it, the other with my own doctoral research. The lingering question was "why"? Your assertion is just as good as any: they're inferior because they are.
     
  9. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Yes. the perception is definitely there - has been forever. USDoE counters this by saying ALL are to be known as National Accreditors - and from the look of things, that's not gonna help. I don't share that inferiority perception - but I'm an outsider, don't live in the US, don't work in education, and am not a product of US education system - so who cares what I think or perceive. And yes, RA /NA inferiority perception is seen here in Canada, as Stanislav recounted, some time ago.

    You're right - it exists. The answer? Beats me. I'm an amateur. Can't fix the economy - can't fix this. Perception is hard to change. You have to deal with the underlying reasons and I don't fully understand them. Maybe because something is cheaper, it's suspect. I dunno. The same outlook prevails abroad, too. For example, UK-NARIC (ENIC now,) will NOT evaluate any NA degrees. RA or the "Motorway."

    I think it can be fixed - but it'll need someone who's in the US - and WAY more knowledgeable than I am. USDoE aren't having much success with it - so it's obviously ingrained - not easy. Somebody help them -- please.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2023
  10. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I, once again, want to go on record as saying that I think schools accredited by recognized non-RA agencies should be considered legitimate and the degrees held by their graduates should be, too.`

    The Department of Education has an uphill climb since, unlike almost every other country in the world, our system of recognizing universities is a private and voluntary affair, conducted by a self-regulating industry. They can influence the situation, maybe, but they cannot control it. CHEA, on the other hand, could. The question is, however, who has the real power: CHEA or its RA members? Could CHEA pull it off, or is that just the tail trying to wag the dog?

    And do agencies like TRACS and DEAC even want that? Would it expose them and some of their schools?

    Your "if it ain't broke" comment might more apt as "let sleeping dogs lie."

    John Bear related the story about asking the previous head of the DEAC how they could accredit schools like the University of Leicester and UNISA, when it was so obvious that both were far beyond DEAC's approved scope. (They accredited Leicester, but they were really only dealing with a small skunk works shop there--now absorbed into the University.) "Don't go there, John" was Michael Lambert's response. Just let sleeping dogs lie, he seemed to be saying.
     
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  11. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Yes - wrong move, by me. It does indeed sound that way. I'll try to wiggle out - I mean explain. What I should have said is -- no Accreditors should have to change their standards etc. But yes - we need a fix in perception so that the schools and degrees are "considered equal" in regard to legitimacy, from any recognized US accreditor.

    "Considered equal," as we've seen before, in history, is a VERY easy thing to proclaim, but a humongously tough one to achieve. Contrary human nature persists. I don't think this "accreditation dichotomy" is something we can EVER solve over DI and coffee. I just don't know HOW you do that, effectively. I took quite a few psych courses (still do) but some aspects of human nature - like this one - are beyond me.

    As to what I think of Mike Lambert's statement (I read John's account of it some years ago) - well, "let's not go there."
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2023
  12. Mac Juli

    Mac Juli Well-Known Member

    Hello!


    OK, I did some recherche. At least, I tried to. Charisma University is "institutionally accredited" by ACQUIN. This means that they can, in principle, be compliant to the demands one has to the institution regarding structure of the organisation, administration, financing, qualification of the education, BUT: the programs the institution offers are NOT in the focus of this accreditation. So, it can nothing be said if a degree from Charisma University will be accepted in Germany.

    Well. Draw your own conclusions...

    Best regards,
    Mac Juli
     
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  13. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Thanks, Mac. I have. Here they are:

    US institutional accreditation - NA or RA - is different. Accreditors go through all programs - each of which has to meet their approval in academic aspects. Schools may have to make changes that satisfy them, or no accreditation. The accreditors can tell the schools which programs they can teach, and specify any that may not be taught. (No propios.) Once accredited, a school has to obtain the accreditor's permission, before teaching any new program. As you can see from chrisjm18's thread on accreditors' actions, it's not a slam-dunk. Refusals are not rare.

    From your description, that academic oversight doesn't seem to be happening in such depth with ACQUIN. I figure it IS exactly the oversight process the school is going through with TRACS.

    The following statement has nothing to do with whether I like this school or not: It's taken the school a long time to get this far. Persistence is everything. On that basis, I think it will succeed.

    Again, Mac, I thank you for your effort on this. Good work!
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2023
  14. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Yeah, I do, Steve. True. And I like the Mamas' and Papas' version - and I'm "still crazy after all these years" about Jose Feliciano's version.
     
  15. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    And today, from another thread:
    As I said - persistence is everything. I'd say maybe a year - maybe less, and Charisma's persistence will reward the school with recognized US accreditation.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2023
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  16. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Which says a lot about TRACS.

    National institutional accreditors--and I include DEAC in this assertion--are in place largely to provide consumer protection and assurances that federal financial aid is appropriately awarded and spent. They do that. I'm sure TRACS does that.

    But agencies who accredit schools like the Canadian School of Management, Revans, Southwest, and this thing really shouldn't be taken too seriously. If you get a degree from them, should it be recognized? Sure, why not? But if you want to know why some accrediting agencies don't recognize others, the answer isn't very hard to discern.
     
  17. Johann766

    Johann766 Active Member

    Is that even possible, state-recognition in the USA for a school that is not even located in the USA?
    I mean degree equivalency with US degrees - that makes sense.
    Whatever, I don't know much about the USA RA NA etc. so maybe it makes sense.

    Regarding EENI they've been around for decades and it seems they made zero progress regarding any sort of state recognition.
     
  18. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Maybe not - but TRACS were the only people who could and would save Morris Brown, a 140-year-old HBCU from extinction. It had lost RA 20 years before, due to a financial scandal. Yet another new administration - and TRACS pulled it off, together. Kudos to both.

    As I said - whether one likes the school or the accreditor or not - TRACS is recognized US accreditation. As is DEAC, whether one likes them or not. Canadian School of Management and Revans were a long time ago. Mistakes yes -- mistakes of the distant past. And Southwest? They were accredited by DEAC until 2019. Sudden voluntary withdrawal in 2019. Haven't been able to dig up the story behind it.

    Wiki here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_University_(Louisiana)

    Rich - can you fill us in? What happened here and where, in your opinion did DEAC go wrong?
     
  19. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Yes. Definitely. The first example that came to mind is: Amity University, India.

    Google: Amity University Uttar Pradesh is Asia's only Not-For-Profit University to get US Regional Accreditation by The Western Association of Schools and Colleges - Senior College and University Commission (WSCUC)."

    Others? Here's a list of the top 10 overseas Universities holding US Regional accreditation. https://collegecliffs.com/foreign-colleges-us-accreditation/

    If the Regionals can do it, so can the Nationals. TRACS has just granted Charisma University, Turks and Caicos, Candidate status. DEAC has, in the past, accredited several offshore schools, including a University in Australia and UNISA in South Africa. Both already had full recognition in their home countries.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2023
  20. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I think DEAC got way ahead of itself. The RAs weren't doing their job as it regarding distance schools--look how many they accredit now that they ignored for years...or decades.

    DEAC accredited a handful of bad schools--often schools touting fake accreditation right up to the day DEAC accredited them. CSM was a mess, awarding credentials that weren't technically degrees (IIRC, because Ontario wouldn't let them), yet allowed them to be translated into degrees from the absurd Northland Open University (run by the same guy, George Korey). With the RAs dragging their heels, DEAC jumped into the void and made more than a few mistakes.

    For many, many years, Southwest operated with no recognized accreditation by Reg Sheldrick--a charming fellow. But its accreditation by DEAC was a shock.
     

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